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Author Topic:   What is Creationism?
New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(4)
Message 46 of 88 (809390)
05-18-2017 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by CRR
05-18-2017 9:29 AM


I'm an Anglican and lapsed atheist. The closest of the Protestant faiths to Catholicism.

Yeah, if I wasn't Catholic I'd prolly go Anglican.

I used to believe in evolution.

This is a nitpick, but I don't say that I "believe in" evolution. It's not a belief, it is the acceptance of a theory. There's a difference. I reserve belief for things that I don't have knowledge of. I know that species evolve - the ToE is just the best explanation that we have for how it happens. And I can accept that.

Is it 100% correct and complete? No, of course not. But it works well and it makes sense explaining the facts.

I stated reading Young Earth Creationist literature out of curiosity and after a while I began to realise they had valid arguments. While old earth evolutionists do have some good arguments I also think there are a lot of weaknesses in their position and overall the YEC position holds up well.

YEC is literally impossible unless god is a prankster.

The Earth appears old, very old. If it is young, then god is magically making it appear to be something that it isn't, and that would be a dirty trick.

If the evolutionists here hope to convince me they will need to lift their game.

Convincing the person you are replying to is only a small part of the game. You gotta keep the lurkers in mind, and this activity is a therapeutic honing of communication skills.


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Tangle
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Posts: 5153
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 47 of 88 (809395)
05-18-2017 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by CRR
05-18-2017 9:29 AM


CRR writes:

I stated reading Young Earth Creationist literature out of curiosity and after a while I began to realise they had valid arguments.

They have no arguments; they have beliefs. In order to sustain those beliefs against the mountain of multi-disciplinary evidence showing them to be wrong they have a small collection of misleading quote mines and mostly antique and always discredited pieces 'evidence' that they think of as proof of a case against all the science that contradicts them.

The YEC position is just absurd - demonstrably wrong by simple observation. There's multiple sources of cross-correlated evidence that puts YEC beyond all reasonble doubt and none of it needs to include evolution.

YEC is a form of madness.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
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(2)
Message 48 of 88 (809396)
05-18-2017 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by CRR
05-18-2017 9:29 AM


If the evolutionists here hope to convince me they will need to lift their game.

No. For us to convince you, you will need to lift your game. You've been duped by YEC arguments; your thinking is shallow, amateurish, and --- as we have seen --- desperately ill-informed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by CRR, posted 05-18-2017 9:29 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by CRR, posted 05-18-2017 6:47 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Taq
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Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 49 of 88 (809421)
05-18-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by CRR
05-18-2017 9:29 AM


CRR writes:

If the evolutionists here hope to convince me they will need to lift their game.

Your consistent refusal to address the evidence given demonstrates that you don't want to be convinced.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by CRR, posted 05-18-2017 9:29 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 50 of 88 (809499)
05-18-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by CRR
05-18-2017 9:29 AM


Challenge to debate the age of the earth
I used to believe in evolution. I stated reading Young Earth Creationist literature out of curiosity and after a while I began to realise they had valid arguments. While old earth evolutionists do have some good arguments I also think there are a lot of weaknesses in their position and overall the YEC position holds up well.

The Young Earth delusion is based wholly on belief, not evidence. The biggest weakness, imho, of the YEC position is the age of the earth ... it is just not compatible with reality. Mountains of reality.

If you want to debate this then go to Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 and start with Bristlecone Pines

Or, if you want a more updated version (includes new data since the one above) go to The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1) -- it is only partially complete yet, but it gets to an age for the earth of over 12,477 years (2017), well past the normal YEC delusional age. We can ask admin to promote it ...

Or, if you want to do this one on one, we can make it a new thread on The Great Debate forum.

The challenge for the age deniers is not just to describe how a single method can be wrong, but how they can all be wrong at the same time and in the same way to produce virtually identical results (within the margins of error) - when random results or systematic errors in different methods should produce notably different results:

The challenge for old age deniers (especially young earth proponents) is to explain why the same basic results occur from different measurement systems if they are not measuring actual age?

Those other measurement systems come into fuller play in later posts.

No creationist has been able to meet the challenge yet, so you can be the first on your block.

My prediction is that you won't take up the challenge, or you won't last long in a one on one (there have been others that have tried and failed), because your cognitive dissonance in maintaining cherished beliefs will not permit contrary information into your worldview bubble.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 51 of 88 (809537)
05-18-2017 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dr Adequate
05-18-2017 10:20 AM


Lift you game
No. For us to convince you, you will need to lift your game. You've been duped by YEC arguments; your thinking is shallow, amateurish, and --- as we have seen --- desperately ill-informed.

That's pretty rich coming from somebody who regularly makes accusations of lying or "You made that up".
e.g. Message 43


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-18-2017 10:20 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 53 by Taq, posted 05-19-2017 12:40 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 52 of 88 (809542)
05-18-2017 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by CRR
05-18-2017 6:47 PM


Re: Lift you game
That's pretty rich coming from somebody who regularly makes accusations of lying or "You made that up".

That is only one of the things I'm right about.

If you don't like it, then maybe you could prevail upon your fellow-YECs to spend less time lying and making shit up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by CRR, posted 05-18-2017 6:47 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 53 of 88 (809605)
05-19-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by CRR
05-18-2017 6:47 PM


Re: Lift you game
CRR writes:

That's pretty rich coming from somebody who regularly makes accusations of lying or "You made that up".

So do you not know you are spreading lies, or do you know they are lies and spread them anyway?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by CRR, posted 05-18-2017 6:47 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
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Posts: 1824
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 54 of 88 (809609)
05-19-2017 12:56 PM


Warning
Lets keep personal attacks to a minimum. Focus on the topic.

  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 55 by Davidjay, posted 05-20-2017 9:47 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

        
    Davidjay 
    Suspended Member
    Posts: 1026
    From: B.C Canada
    Joined: 11-05-2004


    Message 55 of 88 (809672)
    05-20-2017 9:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 54 by AdminPhat
    05-19-2017 12:56 PM


    Re: Warning
    Agreed, but certain parties and certain people get frustrated when they cant win a debate or have no information or facts or science, and they cant explain themselves.

    Creationism is the study of creation, not just in living things as with luck and chance evolution, but with all things, all distances, speeds, and all times. Creationism is logical and mathematical and rational, evolution is not, as it is only a con and a lie and semantics.

    Linquists love definitions, and definition changes and word twisting and species classifications as then they can con readers into thinking their artist conceptions must be true...

    Its a con.


    Being told to "Fuck you I can fucking write whatever I want" by CatsEye to me I thought would be against the rules Here( at http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=page&t=17167&mpp=1... ...message 145 )but this board says there are no rules concerning languageits HERE, so allow me to repost Cats eyes comments.

    This message is a reply to:
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    dwise1
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    Posts: 2994
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 56 of 88 (809912)
    05-22-2017 4:24 AM


    Basically, "creationism" has become anti-evolution.

    It's really that basic. Regardless of their actual theologies, it always basically boils down to them opposing evolution in whatever form they misconceive it as being.

    BTW, there is no conflict between divine creation and evolution.

    Chew on that one a bit.


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    Tanypteryx
    Member
    Posts: 1589
    From: Oregon, USA
    Joined: 08-27-2006
    Member Rating: 4.6


    Message 57 of 88 (809963)
    05-22-2017 12:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by dwise1
    05-22-2017 4:24 AM


    Basically, "creationism" has become anti-evolution.

    I think I would say anti-evolution and anti-geology, but yes definitely anti-evolution.


    What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

    One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

    If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

    The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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    jar
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    Posts: 29608
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    (1)
    Message 58 of 88 (809964)
    05-22-2017 12:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by Tanypteryx
    05-22-2017 12:47 PM


    Creationism is also anti-Christian and anti-Bible.
    And anti-Christian and anti-Bible and ant-reality and anti-reason and anti-logic and created to make God look stupid.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10039
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 59 of 88 (809969)
    05-22-2017 2:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
    05-15-2017 12:45 PM


    Re: Source vs Content
    ringo writes:

    A creator practically flies in the face of evidence.


    Evidence is not the sole standard. Rational belief counts also.

    Wiki writes:

    The expression, "God of the Gaps," contains a real truth. It is erroneous if it is taken to mean that God is not immanent in natural law but is only to be observed in mysteries unexplained by law. No significant Christian group has believed this view. It is true, however, if it is taken to emphasize that God is not only immanent in natural law but also is active in the numerous phenomena associated with the supernatural and the spiritual. There are gaps in a physical-chemical explanation of this world, and there always will be. Because science has learned many marvelous secrets of nature, it cannot be concluded that it can explain all phenomena. Meaning, soul, spirits, and life subjects incapable of physical-chemical explanation or formation.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
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    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 19216
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 2.4


    (1)
    Message 60 of 88 (809970)
    05-22-2017 2:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by jar
    05-22-2017 12:51 PM


    Re: Creationism is also anti-Christian and anti-Bible.
    And anti-Christian and anti-Bible and ant-reality and anti-reason and anti-logic and created to make God look stupid.

    Creationism is not bible study (or koran study etc) it is the process of making things up that are not in the bible etc and then claiming they are true because of the bible etc.

    The age of the earth is an example. Nowhere does the bible etc state how old the earth is.

    Building mountains with flood water is another, explaining fossils, rock layers, etc with a magic flying flood is another.

    Enjoy


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

    This message is a reply to:
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