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Author Topic:   Can mutation and selection increase information?
Percy
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Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 151 of 222 (817372)
08-17-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by CRR
08-16-2017 6:51 PM


Re: random and non-random mutations
It is natural selection that is goal directed, not random mutation.

CRR writes:

But the question is Can mutation and selection increase information?

Random mutation increases information, selection reduces it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by CRR, posted 08-16-2017 6:51 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by CRR, posted 08-18-2017 6:02 PM Percy has responded

    
Taq
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Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 152 of 222 (817400)
08-17-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by CRR
08-16-2017 6:51 PM


Re: random and non-random mutations
CRR writes:

I have already made the distinction between a goal-directed search and a guided search.

All you have is a semantic argument, as usual.

A search can be goal-directed and unguided, completely random, at the same time.

What would it look like if random mutations were not goal directed? How would they differ from goal directed random mutations?

Rather than "redefining terms" I am using already established terms in their normal way.

Can you show us a single peer reviewed paper that uses those terms in those ways?


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 Message 147 by CRR, posted 08-16-2017 6:51 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 153 of 222 (817626)
08-18-2017 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Percy
08-17-2017 8:49 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Random mutation increases information, ...

Only if you're talking about Shannon Information and even Shannon acknowledged that had nothing to do with meaning.

... selection reduces it.

Yes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 08-17-2017 8:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 08-19-2017 8:33 AM CRR has responded
 Message 155 by JonF, posted 08-19-2017 8:54 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 154 of 222 (817661)
08-19-2017 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by CRR
08-18-2017 6:02 PM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Random mutation increases information, ...

Only if you're talking about Shannon Information ...

Yes, of course.

...and even Shannon acknowledged that had nothing to do with meaning.

More like he stated it right up from in his seminal paper:

quote:
The fundamental problem of communication is that of reproducing at one point either exactly or approximately a message selected at another point. Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with certain physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem.

So, yes, random information increases Shannon information. Selection reduces it.

--Percy


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 Message 153 by CRR, posted 08-18-2017 6:02 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by CRR, posted 08-21-2017 4:37 AM Percy has responded

    
JonF
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Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 155 of 222 (817663)
08-19-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by CRR
08-18-2017 6:02 PM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Only if you're talking about Shannon Information and even Shannon acknowledged that had nothing to do with meaning.

Gosh, you never got around to an operational definition of the kind of information you are talking about.


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CRR
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From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 156 of 222 (817848)
08-21-2017 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Percy
08-19-2017 8:33 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Think of it this way.
I have a copy of Origin of Species which contains information.
I buy another copy. Do I now have twice as much information? Or 2 copies of the same information?
I tear a page out of one copy and glue in a page of random numbers. That's a deletion and an insertion. Does that give me more information?

Werner Gitt in In the Beginning Was Information distinguishes 5 levels of information of which Statistical (Shannon Information) is the lowest level.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 08-19-2017 8:33 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 08-21-2017 8:47 AM CRR has responded
 Message 158 by JonF, posted 08-21-2017 8:54 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 162 by Taq, posted 08-23-2017 11:43 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 157 of 222 (817856)
08-21-2017 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by CRR
08-21-2017 4:37 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Think of it this way.

You're studying the population of a certain organism. One of the offspring experiences a mutation that gives it two copies of a gene that produces a certain protein. The organism now produces twice as much of that protein as before resulting in differences from others in the population. So of course gene duplication increases information.

Mathematically, the number of bits required to encode the number of genes of an organism is log2(number-of-genes). Naturally log2(number-of-genes + 1) is a larger number and therefore more information.

Werner Gitt in In the Beginning Was Information distinguishes 5 levels of information of which Statistical (Shannon Information) is the lowest level.

Werner Gitt confuses information with meaning.

But repeating the answer to your original question about whether mutation and selection can increase Shannon information, random mutation increases information, selection reduces it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by CRR, posted 08-21-2017 4:37 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by CRR, posted 08-22-2017 2:44 AM Percy has responded

    
JonF
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Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 158 of 222 (817857)
08-21-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by CRR
08-21-2017 4:37 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Think of it this way.
I have a copy of Origin of Species which contains information.
I buy another copy. Do I now have twice as much information? Or 2 copies of the same information?

Depends on your definition of information. What's yours?

I tear a page out of one copy and glue in a page of random numbers. That's a deletion and an insertion. Does that give me more information?

Depends on your definition of information. What's yours?


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 Message 156 by CRR, posted 08-21-2017 4:37 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 159 of 222 (817950)
08-22-2017 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
08-21-2017 8:47 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Werner Gitt confuses information with meaning.

No, he just uses a different definition of information than Shannon; must people do. Shannon's definition is very restrictive but suited for the purpose for which he was using it.

random mutation increases information, selection reduces it.

Random mutation degrades existing information. Take a page from a book and start randomly mutating the letters and pretty soon it is unreadable and any information on that page is lost.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 08-21-2017 8:47 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Percy, posted 08-22-2017 10:03 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 163 by Taq, posted 08-23-2017 11:45 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:48 PM CRR has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 160 of 222 (817979)
08-22-2017 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by CRR
08-22-2017 2:44 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
CRR writes:

Random mutation degrades existing information. Take a page from a book and start randomly mutating the letters and pretty soon it is unreadable and any information on that page is lost.

You're confusing information with meaning. In order to measure information mathematically you must use Shannon information.

Here's an example using a single gene of a population. Imagine that in this population the gene has 4 alleles. The amount of information for this gene across the population is:

log2(4) = 2

Now imagine that one of the offspring in this population experiences a mutation in this gene to form an allele that is different from the existing 4 alleles. Now there are 5 alleles for this gene in the population, and the amount of information is:

log2(5) = 2.32

So the amount of information in the population for this gene has increased from 2 to 2.32.

If you have some other way of measuring information, let's hear it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by CRR, posted 08-22-2017 2:44 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
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Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 161 of 222 (817983)
08-22-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Percy
08-22-2017 10:03 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
You could sort of use Kolmogorov complexity.

But we all know that CRR will never provide an operational definition of what he's talking about. He doesn't have one and if he did it'd be certain that under some circumstances it increases.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Percy, posted 08-22-2017 10:03 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
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Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 162 of 222 (818080)
08-23-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by CRR
08-21-2017 4:37 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
CRR writes:

I have a copy of Origin of Species which contains information.
I buy another copy. Do I now have twice as much information? Or 2 copies of the same information?

How does that apply to biology?

Can a gene duplication change phenotype? If yes, does that count as an increase in information by your definition?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by CRR, posted 08-21-2017 4:37 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 163 of 222 (818082)
08-23-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by CRR
08-22-2017 2:44 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
CRR writes:

No, he just uses a different definition of information than Shannon; must people do. Shannon's definition is very restrictive but suited for the purpose for which he was using it.

But is that definition applicable to biology?

Random mutation degrades existing information. Take a page from a book and start randomly mutating the letters and pretty soon it is unreadable and any information on that page is lost.

Then you would define every difference between the chimp and human genomes as a loss in information. In other words, your definition is not relevant to biology and evolution since evolution can proceed without needing to gain information as you define it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by CRR, posted 08-22-2017 2:44 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 164 of 222 (818120)
08-23-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by CRR
08-22-2017 2:44 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
CRR writes:

Random mutation degrades existing information.


How can you know whether the information is "degraded" before it is filtered by selection? What if a mutation makes an organism fitter in a new environment while the unmutated individuals remain fitter in the old environment? Isn't that an effective increase in information?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by CRR, posted 08-22-2017 2:44 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by CRR, posted 08-25-2017 2:09 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 5069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 165 of 222 (818129)
08-23-2017 6:20 PM


Which has more information a pig or a cow?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
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