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Author Topic:   Can mutation and selection increase information?
Percy
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Posts: 16178
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 196 of 222 (818552)
08-30-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by CRR
08-30-2017 12:22 AM


Re: Cells
CRR writes:

However in this case the original cell has ALL of the genetic and extra-genetic information for EVERY cell including the information to switch off the un-needed functions in each specialist tissue. That is the difference between a complex organism and a single celled organism.

As I pointed out in another thread, the amoeba genome is a hundred times larger than the human genome. Which is more complex? You can't answer questions like that if you're going to avoid mathematics and information theory.

And are answers to those questions meaningful when all that's important is whether an organism is well adapted to its environment? How would you mathematically measure how well adapted an organism is? If you could do that you could then compare level of adaptation to complexity or amount of information and see if there are any meaningful correlations.

My guess is that there would be little correlation. Evolution is a random walk. Solutions to the adaptation problems faced by organisms in their environment are presented through allele frequency change and random mutation. Evolution makes do with what is available. How much genome an organism ended up with to achieve adaptation is probably random, though perhaps it may serve as a record of how much environmental change its ancestral species have passed through.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by CRR, posted 08-30-2017 6:15 PM Percy has responded
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 197 of 222 (818559)
08-30-2017 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by CRR
08-30-2017 12:22 AM


Re: Cells
CRR writes:

However in this case the original cell has ALL of the genetic and extra-genetic information for EVERY cell including the information to switch off the un-needed functions in each specialist tissue. That is the difference between a complex organism and a single celled organism.

I would agree that the production of tissues is what separates complex eukaryotes (animals, plants) from less complex species (protists, prokaryotes). It comes down to the evolution of switches in the genome that respond to chemicals released by neighboring cells. It is interesting to note that complex animals share some of the more important switches which are called homeobox genes.


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CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 198 of 222 (818584)
08-30-2017 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Percy
08-30-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Cells
Percy writes:

the amoeba genome is a hundred times larger than the human genome


Over 200 times in the case of Amoeba dubia.

My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 08-30-2017 9:09 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26620
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 222 (818586)
08-30-2017 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Percy
08-30-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Cells
Just curious: How much junk DNA is there in that amoeba genome?
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Tangle
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Posts: 5166
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 200 of 222 (818606)
08-31-2017 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by CRR
08-30-2017 6:15 PM


Re: Cells
CRR writes:


Over 200 times in the case of Amoeba dubia.
My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count.

My conclusion is that the amoeba's genome is EXACTLY the size it needs to be for an amoeba. It containly precicely the correct amount (and value???) of informtion to be an amoeba.

How much 'value' or 'information' do you think can you remove from an amoeba's genome before it's no longer viable?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 16178
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 201 of 222 (818611)
08-31-2017 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by CRR
08-30-2017 6:15 PM


Re: Cells
CRR writes:

My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count.

You're still confusing information with meaning, and you still have accepted no way of measuring information (Gitt cannot measure information). Therefore your statements about information gain or loss are meaningless.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by CRR, posted 08-30-2017 6:15 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 202 of 222 (818622)
08-31-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by CRR
08-30-2017 6:15 PM


Re: Cells
CRR writes:

My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count.

If you found the following sequence in a book, would you think that it contained information?

MGDVEKGKKIFIMKCSQCHTVEKGGKHKTGPNLHGLFGRKTGQAPGYSYTAANKNKGIIW
GEDTLMEYLENPKKYIPGTKMIFVGIKKKEERADLIAYLKKATNE


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29628
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 203 of 222 (818623)
08-31-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Taq
08-31-2017 10:38 AM


Re: Cells
Bsgra jung frrzf tvoorevfu vf npghnyyl dhvgr vasbezngvir. Vmalu doha zlltz npiilypzo pz hjabhssf xbpal pumvythapcl. Tkyjs bmfy xjjrx lnggjwnxm nx fhyzfqqd vznyj nsktwrfynaj.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16178
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 204 of 222 (818639)
08-31-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by jar
08-31-2017 11:09 AM


Re: Cells
Sfqfujujpo jt zpvs gsjfoe.

--Qfsdz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 08-31-2017 11:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 08-31-2017 1:20 PM Percy has responded
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 205 of 222 (818640)
08-31-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Percy
08-31-2017 1:14 PM


Re: Cells
Uif lfzxpse jt Qfsdz.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Percy, posted 08-31-2017 1:14 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16178
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 206 of 222 (818642)
08-31-2017 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by ringo
08-31-2017 1:20 PM


Re: Cells
Uibu'mm ufbdi nf up vtf nz sfbm obnf.

--Nyzaquml


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 08-31-2017 1:20 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29628
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 207 of 222 (818645)
08-31-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Percy
08-31-2017 1:14 PM


Re: Cells
Exactly. But still, no one has presented the working definition of information, how to recognize information or how to determine increase in information. In my example there are actually at least four significant, definable, detectable and applicable bits of information and your post added two more.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 208 of 222 (818665)
08-31-2017 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Percy
08-31-2017 8:39 AM


Re: Information
You're still confusing Shannon Information with Information. Shannon Information is only a metric for a message.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information
Information is that which informs, so it will have meaning.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Percy, posted 08-31-2017 8:39 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


(1)
Message 209 of 222 (818667)
08-31-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Taq
08-31-2017 10:38 AM


Re: Cells
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
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 Message 202 by Taq, posted 08-31-2017 10:38 AM Taq has responded

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Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 210 of 222 (818669)
08-31-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by CRR
08-31-2017 7:26 PM


Re: Cells
A simple answer to my question would be most appreciated.
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