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Author Topic:   Can mutation and selection increase information?
Taq
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Message 16 of 35 (809412)
05-18-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
05-17-2017 8:54 PM


Re: No new information needed
Faith writes:

No mutations needed, no extra alleles needed, just the combining of the two-form genes through sexual recombination. (I'm only thinking of sexually reproducing creatures).

That just doesn't work. You can't get all of the species living today and all the species that have existed from a universal common ancestor using just two alleles per gene.


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Taq
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Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 17 of 35 (809415)
05-18-2017 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:02 AM


Re: functional information ... DNA function
Faith writes:


Would you please explain to me how genes duplicate? Since they occupy a position along the DNA strand, and they are thousands of codons long, and the replication process follows the strand codon by codon how does a copy of a gene get separately inserted into the strand?

One of the mechanisms of gene duplication (if memory serves) is homologous recombination.

This whole process is caused by the chemical characteristics of DNA. DNA bases on separate strands of DNA can stick to one another through a process called hydrogen bonding. However, not all bases will stick to all other bases. Instead, the hydrogen atoms have to be lined up for the bonding to occur. Therefore, only A will stick to T, and only G will stick to C (and vice versa). These are called complementary bases:

Any time you have enough complementary bases you can get two strands of DNA to stick to one another, like the meshing of a zipper. Most of the time this results in perfectly aligned strands of DNA where the same pieces of DNA are always across from one another. However, during meiosis there is a stage where pieces of each pair of chromosomes is switched back and forth between each other, and during this process you can get more distant pieces of DNA to stick together. This can cause a gene to be duplicated elsewhere in the chromosome. You can read more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_duplication


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Taq
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Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 18 of 35 (809417)
05-18-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
05-17-2017 10:37 PM


Re: Evolution uses up genetic diversity
Faith writes:

My first answer is what I think was the plan at the Creation, but the question usually comes up in discussions of what evolution actually does -- that is, the process of evolving loses information, that's how you get new phenotypes. I prefer to describe it as losing alleles which I think is clearer than "information." And the example I use because it's so clear is domestic selection or breeding: to get a purebred animal requires losing all the genetic material, alleles, for other breeds. You select them out of the breeding pool, so you get the purebred on the basis of homozygosity at the loci that are the main traits of your breed, and that means eliminating all the other alleles.

Let's start with a common ancestor for humans and chimps. Those branches separate and then each branch accumulates mutations that change both species into what we see today.

Are you saying that you would classify all of those mutations that led from an ape-like human ancestor to modern humans as losses in genetic information?


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bluegenes
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Posts: 3088
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Joined: 01-24-2007
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Message 19 of 35 (809423)
05-18-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:02 AM


Mutation! Errors create more!
Faith writes:

Would you please explain to me how genes duplicate? Since they occupy a position along the DNA strand, and they are thousands of codons long, and the replication process follows the strand codon by codon how does a copy of a gene get separately inserted into the strand?

You won't like it. Errors while reproducing. There are several different types. Chunks of DNA duplicate quite often, and when there's a gene in the segment, that's a duplicate.

It's common. You've got loads of duplicates in your genome.

This will tell you the different ways.

Gene duplication

Didn't you know it happened?

ABE: a bit redundant, because Taq got there first and linked to the same article.

Edited by bluegenes, : pipped to the post


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Faith
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Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 35 (809426)
05-18-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by bluegenes
05-18-2017 11:39 AM


Re: Mutation! Errors create more!
I've certainly heard of gene duplications but not how they work, and I'm still not getting it. Please don't refer me to links, they are hard for me to read.

How do they duplicate? Does the strand break apart to admit a whole new segment or what?


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Taq
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Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 21 of 35 (809429)
05-18-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Mutation! Errors create more!
Faith writes:

How do they duplicate? Does the strand break apart to admit a whole new segment or what?

That can be another way that gene duplication occurs. The sugar-phosphate backbone of DNA can break and then be reattached to another piece of DNA floating around.

Homologous recombination can also occur, as detailed above.

The proteins that copy DNA can also fall off of the DNA and strand and start again elsewhere, causing a duplication of DNA (replication slippage).

Needless to say, gene duplication does happen and biologists understand the mechanisms by which it happens.


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bluegenes
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Posts: 3088
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
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(1)
Message 22 of 35 (809431)
05-18-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
05-17-2017 8:54 PM


Re: No new information needed
Faith writes:

Well, I'd been assuming that new information WAS needed for all the diversity of life to exist, because that's often claimed, but now I don't think anything new is needed, it was all built in to the original genome of each Kind at Creation, most or all of it provided through genes for traits made up of two and only two forms or alleles. As I showed on the thread about YEC supposedly needing mutations and positive selection, a mere two genes with two alleles each provide sixteen different versions of a trait simply by combining the effects of the four different proteins produced by the four different alleles. Since many traits have quite a few more genes than two the possible variation in only one trait is enormous.

No mutations needed, no extra alleles needed, just the combining of the two-form genes through sexual recombination. (I'm only thinking of sexually reproducing creatures).

So, if a mutation did produce a new functional allele with a new effect on the phenotype, wouldn't you agree that that constitutes new information, whether it's "needed" or not?


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Faith
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Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 35 (809445)
05-18-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by bluegenes
05-18-2017 11:51 AM


Re: No new information needed
So, if a mutation did produce a new functional allele with a new effect on the phenotype, wouldn't you agree that that constitutes new information, whether it's "needed" or not?

I would figure it had managed to replicate an existing allele, not anything actually new, but so far I'm not convinced that anything new at all, even in that sense, is ever created by a mutation. Evidence you gave on the other thread was all based on a supposed high frequency which I think is just an illusion based on assuming a new allele instead of a neutral mutation which doesn't change the protein or the function of the original allele.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 05-18-2017 12:43 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
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Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 24 of 35 (809455)
05-18-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:21 PM


Re: No new information needed
Faith writes:

I would figure it had managed to replicate an existing allele probably at another gene, not anything actually new, but so far I'm not convinced that anything new at all, even in that sense, is ever created by a mutation.

If we started with the chimp genome and changed that genome at 40 million places to end up with the human genome, would you consider that a new genome with new information?


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bluegenes
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Posts: 3088
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 25 of 35 (809458)
05-18-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:21 PM


Re: No new information needed
Faith writes:

bluegenes writes:

So, if a mutation did produce a new functional allele with a new effect on the phenotype, wouldn't you agree that that constitutes new information, whether it's "needed" or not?

I would figure it had managed to replicate an existing allele probably at another gene,.....

Why and how would you figure that?

Faith writes:

.....not anything actually new, but so far I'm not convinced that anything new at all, even in that sense, is ever created by a mutation.

Evidence you gave on the other thread was all based on a supposed high frequency which I think is just an illusion based on assuming a new allele instead of a neutral mutation which doesn't change the protein or the function of the original allele.

No, different alleles are known to give immunity to different parasites, and you'd know that if you'd read the extracts from the paper on MHC that I posted there.

My question was conditional. If a new mutation created something new in the phenotype (even if you don't believe this actually happens) would it constitute new information?


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 Message 23 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:50 PM bluegenes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 35 (809461)
05-18-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bluegenes
05-18-2017 12:43 PM


Re: No new information needed
If that paper is above Percy's pay grade as he put it, it's certainly above mine. I read what I was able to read, and nothing you said gave evidence that new alleles actually exist. As I keep saying the "evidence" of supposed positive selection shown by increased frequency is an illusion if the allele in question is really a neutral mutation, which would be passed on and easily look like increased frequency based on your assumption.

You seem to think that paper actually shows that new alleles give immunity to different parasites, but it doesn't. It assumes it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:53 PM Faith has responded
 Message 32 by bluegenes, posted 05-18-2017 1:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 27 of 35 (809463)
05-18-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:50 PM


Re: No new information needed
Faith writes:

If that paper is above Percy's pay grade as he put it, it's certainly above mine. I read what I was able to read, and nothing you said gave evidence that new alleles actually exist.

By your own admission, you wouldn't be able to spot the evidence if it does exist, so you can't claim that the evidence doesn't exist.

You seem to think that paper actually shows that new alleles give immunity to different parasites, but it doesn't.

You can't claim ignorance of what a paper says, then turn around and make claims about what the paper says.


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 Message 26 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:55 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 35 (809464)
05-18-2017 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taq
05-18-2017 12:53 PM


Re: No new information needed
I understood what I understood, and interestingly you don't say one thing that shows I'm wrong about that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:53 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:59 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 29 of 35 (809467)
05-18-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:55 PM


Re: No new information needed
Faith writes:

I understood what I understood, and interestingly you don't say one thing that shows I'm wrong about that.

The paper already demonstrates you are wrong.


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 Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 1:05 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 35 (809476)
05-18-2017 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taq
05-18-2017 12:59 PM


Re: No new information needed
Quote it if it demonstrates I'm wrong. It doesn't. It assumes what you think it proves, it does not prove it. That's why Percy asked for evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:59 PM Taq has responded

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