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Author Topic:   Can mutation and selection increase information?
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 61 of 222 (815762)
07-24-2017 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluegenes
05-16-2017 8:27 AM


How do you measure genetic information to try and determine whether there was an increase or decrease?
This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 62 of 222 (815763)
07-24-2017 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by CRR
07-24-2017 6:20 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

Incorrect

Would you like me to copy and paste the quotes from the likes of Faith and Dredge and inumerable others that pass through this place? Really?

The problem you creationists have is that you all believe different things....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 6:20 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 8:30 AM Tangle has responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 63 of 222 (815765)
07-24-2017 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
07-24-2017 8:17 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
The problem you evolutionists have is that you all have different definitions of what evolution and the ToE are. You all believe different things.

Go ahead and copy/paste as many quotes from whoever you like, I already know I don't agree with Faith and Dredge on everything.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2017 8:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2017 3:27 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 65 by Taq, posted 07-24-2017 3:30 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 64 of 222 (815800)
07-24-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by CRR
07-24-2017 8:30 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

The problem you evolutionists have is that you all have different definitions of what evolution and the ToE are. You all believe different things.

Out of all the definitions of evolution you've been given show me any that are contradictory.

Want me to try the same with creationism?

Go ahead and copy/paste as many quotes from whoever you like, I already know I don't agree with Faith and Dredge on everything.

Now show me where anyone that argues for evolution here disagrees on anything significant.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 8:30 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by RAZD, posted 07-24-2017 3:35 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 65 of 222 (815801)
07-24-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by CRR
07-24-2017 8:30 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

The problem you evolutionists have is that you all have different definitions of what evolution and the ToE are. You all believe different things.

Every time you use this argument it is a transparent attempt to avoid the evidence or a question you don't like.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 8:30 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 19327
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 66 of 222 (815805)
07-24-2017 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Tangle
07-24-2017 3:27 PM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
Out of all the definitions of evolution you've been given show me any that are contradictory.

Show me any that don't mean essentially the same thing.

All I've seen are definitions of evolution that are like synonyms of words -- saying the same thing a slightly different way. The consilience between them providing a more complete picture than any one definition.

Now show me where anyone that argues for evolution here disagrees on anything significant.

In science ... in politics not so difficult.


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This message is a reply to:
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CRR
Member
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 67 of 222 (815838)
07-25-2017 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Tangle
07-24-2017 5:13 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
Tangle writes:

Yes, it's a good example of a beneficial mutation followed by natural selection creating a change to the phenotype of a population - evolution in action, observed and proven. This is something creationists claim can't happen.

Who says?

quote:
Can mutations produce new information? Yes, depending on what you mean by ‘new’ and ‘information’. Can they account for the evolution of all life on Earth? No!
Dr Robert Carter, http://creation.com/mutations-new-information

quote:
At this point Darwinists will make a lot of noise about numerous experiments which demonstrate beyond doubt that some mutations can lead to increased fitness, both in humans and in experimental populations. This is certainly true. A recent example is the discovery that a single nucleotide change in ethnic Tibetans (compared with Han Chinese) has allowed them to cope with the chronically low oxygen levels that occur on the high Tibetan plateau.
Alex Williams, http://creation.com/...al-mutations-real-or-imaginary-part-1

quote:
I cannot find anywhere on our website or in our publications where we make the claim that all mutations are bad. On the contrary, we do believe that certain mutations can have beneficial outcomes, as experimental science has shown
Dr. Georgia Purdom, https://answersingenesis.org/...e-there-beneficial-mutations

I could give examples from the Discovery Institute but they don't count because they're not Creationists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2017 5:13 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2017 4:55 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-25-2017 5:29 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 71 by Taq, posted 07-25-2017 1:20 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 68 of 222 (815839)
07-25-2017 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by CRR
07-25-2017 3:46 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
Ah, I see CRR is starting to get it.

The first quote provided.

Can mutations produce new information? Yes, depending on what you mean by ‘new’ and ‘information’...
Great. If you could quantify genetic information it would be quite easy. Which of these two have more genetic information; a cow or a pig?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by CRR, posted 07-25-2017 3:46 AM CRR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 69 of 222 (815840)
07-25-2017 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by CRR
07-25-2017 3:46 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

I could give examples from the Discovery Institute but they don't count because they're not Creationists.

This is all great news CRR, some creationists are beginning to accept evolutionary theory. Perhaps you could pass this knowledge onto Faith and Dredge here, it would save a lot of time.

Meanwhile are elephants and tapirs the same kind and why are pigs and cows not?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by CRR, posted 07-25-2017 3:46 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2017 7:06 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 70 of 222 (815841)
07-25-2017 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
07-25-2017 5:29 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
Don't forget about Petromus. Do they have more or less genetic information than cows or pigs?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-25-2017 5:29 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 71 of 222 (815856)
07-25-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by CRR
07-25-2017 3:46 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

Who says?

Science is not a religion, so quotes from scientists carry no weight. There is no scripture in science.

You need to present evidence, not quotes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by CRR, posted 07-25-2017 3:46 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Vlad
Junior Member (Idle past 45 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 06-03-2017


Message 72 of 222 (815891)
07-26-2017 6:03 AM


Can mutation and selection increase information?
I see, guys, you prefer blah-blah to model experiments. Well, this is quite understandable… Still I continue along my line of argument.
Once again, chance mutations are able to create new heritable (and meaning) information – in principle. Yet, it is known that the truth is in measure. Indeed, until the process of “lexical” self-replication operates within the area of comparatively simple forms – say, “birth”, “suite”, etc. – it faces no insuperable difficulties in its creative activities.
Then consider the advanced form “evolution”: the clone “evolution” would be able to sooner or later accidentally "gemmate" the new form “revolution”. And here the awkward question suggests itself: are chance mutations able to create even more complex forms? Would spontaneous evolution be able to originate such form as, for instance, “counterrevolutionary”? Or any other 20-character English noun?
Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Pressie, posted 07-26-2017 7:03 AM Vlad has not yet responded
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2017 8:28 AM Vlad has not yet responded
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 73 of 222 (815892)
07-26-2017 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Vlad
07-26-2017 6:03 AM


Re: Can mutation and selection increase information?
Vlad writes:

I see, guys, you prefer blah-blah to model experiments.

Nope. The other way round. I, personally, prefer data above blah-blah-blah. Then you, Vlad, keep on going with nothing but word salads.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 74 of 222 (815897)
07-26-2017 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Vlad
07-26-2017 6:03 AM


Re: Can mutation and selection increase information?
I see, guys, you prefer blah-blah to model experiments.

Ha! That's rich coming from a guy who goes on to use scare-quotes eight times.

Would spontaneous evolution be able to originate such form as, for instance, “counterrevolutionary”? Or any other 20-character English noun?

Words don't reproduce.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Vlad, posted 07-26-2017 6:03 AM Vlad has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 75 of 222 (815924)
07-26-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Vlad
07-26-2017 6:03 AM


Re: Can mutation and selection increase information?
Vlad writes:

Would spontaneous evolution be able to originate such form as, for instance, “counterrevolutionary”? Or any other 20-character English noun?

Here is the amino acid sequence for human cytochrome c, an active and functional enzyme:

MGDVEKGKKIFIMKCSQCHTVEKGGKHKTGPNLHGLFGRKTGQAPGYSYTA
ANKNKGIIWGEDTLMEYLENPKKYIPGTKMIFVGIKKKEERADLIAYLKKATNE

Do you see any 20-character English nouns?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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