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Author Topic:   A Creationist Sues the Grand Canyon for Religious Discrimination
Taq
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Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 31 of 99 (809419)
05-18-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:27 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

If the book is known to be the word of the Creator God who made it all,

It isn't known. That is a faith based religious belief. You don't fit theories to religious beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 11:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
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Posts: 29138
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 32 of 99 (809420)
05-18-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:27 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

If the book is known to be the word of the Creator God who made it all, what it says is the primary evidence, THE empirical evidence we must put above all other evidence.

Yet that is precisely what is not known. And the very evidence of the Bible itself shows that it is filled with contradictions, factual errors and fantasy.

Faith writes:

This does not mean rejecting something in the world that is clearly a fact, but a lot of what is pitted against the Bible is noting but interpretations and not facts at all.

And that too is simply not true. What is presented are facts; facts that completely refute many of the tales contained in the Bible from Genesis 1 right on through.

It is a fact that there are living things that have never been under water for even most of a year as you have been shown; most recently in Message 14 of this very thread.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
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Posts: 4876
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 33 of 99 (809425)
05-18-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:27 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

If the book is known to be the word of the Creator God who made it all, what it says is the primary evidence, THE empirical evidence we must put above all other evidence.

You can't include the conclusion in the hypothesis.

This does not mean rejecting something in the world that is clearly a fact

That's exactly what it does mean. To be a Christian YEC all science from biology, physics, astronomy, geology, palaeontology, embryology, molecular genetics etc etc has to be abandoned. It all has to be wrong for you to be right. You in your armchair without any formal training peering at wiki pages against the entirety of science.

It's not working Faith.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 11:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 11:45 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 25596
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 34 of 99 (809428)
05-18-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tangle
05-18-2017 11:40 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
I'll say it again: known facts have to be reconciled with the Bible, but the usual stuff pitted against the Bible isn't facts, it's interpretations.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2017 11:40 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 11:49 AM Faith has responded
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2017 11:53 AM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 35 of 99 (809430)
05-18-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:45 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

I'll say it again: known facts have to be reconciled with the Bible,

No, they don't. We no more have to reconcile facts to the Bible than we have to reconcile facts to the Iliad or the Harry Potter books.

If there really was a recent global flood then the facts will lead us to that conclusion independent of the Bible. The very fact that you have to start with the Bible being true in order to conclude that the Bible is true only demonstrates that the facts don't support the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 11:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:01 PM Taq has responded
 Message 60 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2017 4:23 PM Taq has responded

  
ringo
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Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 36 of 99 (809432)
05-18-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
05-18-2017 4:57 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis ala Phat
Phat writes:

(These Elect that are always being discussed)


The "elect" elect themselves. Nobody else would.

Phat writes:

Are the secular educated being deceived?


That's certainly a good excuse to reject science - and education in general.

Phat writes:

What is the most important single idea that ALL humans should believe? One sentence,please.


Reality wins.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 05-18-2017 4:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4876
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 37 of 99 (809434)
05-18-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:45 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

I'll say it again: known facts have to be reconciled with the Bible, but the usual stuff pitted against the Bible isn't facts, it's interpretations.

And I'll say it again, you can't start with a conclusion - 'the bible is literally true'.

If you do, you inevitably fall flat on your face because the facts show that it isn't. If the facts confirmed that the bible was true, there would be no argument. We're only here because it's impossible for your conclusion to be correct AND conform to the evidence as we have it.

This is why you are failing in every field of study to make your conclusion fit - it doesn't because it's very obviously wrong. You just can't make it fit anywhere in any scientific discipline.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 11:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25596
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 38 of 99 (809439)
05-18-2017 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
05-18-2017 11:49 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
No, they don't. We no more have to reconcile facts to the Bible than we have to reconcile facts to the Iliad or the Harry Potter books.

I said the Bible is God's word. Harry Potter isn't. What you believe is irrelevant. I'm talking about what is required of a Bible believer.

If there really was a recent global flood then the facts will lead us to that conclusion independent of the Bible.

The facts of the strata and the fossils that occur on a scale commensurate with the Flood --, and the fossils also point to mass death -- ought to have led you to it already, but the ponderings of scientists reported on this thread manage to ignore these glaring evidences and rationalize them away.

The very fact that you have to start with the Bible being true in order to conclude that the Bible is true only demonstrates that the facts don't support the Bible.

I knew the Bible was true before I knew anything about creationism. Knowing its true is what got me involved in creationism. Again, what you believe is irrelevant. The Bible tells us about the worldwide Flood and the observable facts of the enormous extent of the strata and the enormous abundance of dead things found therein confirm it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 11:49 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25596
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 39 of 99 (809440)
05-18-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
05-18-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Considering all the disagreements and different theories the scientists have come up with over the centuries it's pretty ridiculous to hold them up against anything. Being disagreed with by all the evos at EvC proves nothing against anything I've said. I consider my record to be very good as far as pinning down both the Flood and the main problem with evolution goes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2017 11:53 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2017 12:16 PM Faith has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3797
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 40 of 99 (809441)
05-18-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
05-18-2017 10:07 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
At first glance this seems to contradict what RAZD just posted about Leonardo's refuting the idea that the fossils in mountains had grown there

No contradiction there. He refuted the ideas that they had been deposited by any flood or had grown *IN* the rocks. "In" means "inside existing rocks", which was one theory of fossils at the time. He realized that they had grown on an exposed sea floor and later been covered and leater been uplifted.

If local floods could have deposited them and not broken them to bits, why couldn't the worldwide Flood?

Local floods could not have deposited them without breaking them to bits.

Why is there such certainty about what the Flood would have done as long as it contradicts what the Bible says?

Because we know a lot of how the physical world works.

So the Flood laid down all the sediments along with the shells and other fossils, and after the Flood the mountains were raised: that's the tectonic activity that occurred with the splitting of the continents. See? It all works out just fine.

Back to magic. The fludde was an incomprehensible raging torrent when you need it, it was a millpond when you need that. Leonardo was smart enough to realize that it doesn't work out just fine, and all the evidence and knowledge we have gained since then supports that conclusion. If the fludde had laid down the sediments and fossils THEY WOULD BE BROKEN UP AND WOULD NOT SHOW OBVIOUS SIGNS OF HAVING GROWN WHERE THEY WERE FOUND.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 10:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:34 PM JonF has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4876
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 41 of 99 (809444)
05-18-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:05 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

Being disagreed with by all the evos at EvC proves nothing against anything I've said.

You're not being disagreed with by people at EVC, you're being disagreed with by the entire scientific community in almost all of its disciplines. We're only reporting the science, they're not personal beliefs.

What's even whackier is that creationists also disagree with you. This should give you a clue if nothing else does that your ideas are totally subjective.

I consider my record to be very good as far as pinning down both the Flood and the main problem with evolution goes.

Of course you do - the more important question is does anyone else? You have proven over and over that convincing yourself is very easy.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25596
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 42 of 99 (809446)
05-18-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tangle
05-18-2017 12:16 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Well golly gosh I don't even care if all the scientists in the world disagree with me if I'm convinced they're wrong about something.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2017 12:16 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Coyote, posted 05-18-2017 12:29 PM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5899
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.2


(3)
Message 43 of 99 (809448)
05-18-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:26 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Well golly gosh I don't even care if all the scientists in the world disagree with me if I'm convinced they're wrong about something.

As per my signature line, "Belief gets in the way of learning."

Perhaps you should stick to the Faith and Belief threads. With your a priori religious bias you are unqualified to do, or even comment on science in any way.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25596
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 44 of 99 (809449)
05-18-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by JonF
05-18-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Local floods could not have deposited them without breaking them to bits.

So you agree that Leonardo was wrong about that.

Why is there such certainty about what the Flood would have done as long as it contradicts what the Bible says?

Because we know a lot of how the physical world works.

Um, the scientists so far quoted disagree with each other quite a bit about how the physical world works.

Strata n fossils, strata n fossils, that's what the Flood did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by JonF, posted 05-18-2017 12:07 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 45 of 99 (809450)
05-18-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:01 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

I said the Bible is God's word.

Do you think things become true by simply pronouncing them to be true?

What you believe is irrelevant. I'm talking about what is required of a Bible believer.

What is required of a Christian is irrelevant to what is true. You could say that a Christian is required to believe that the Moon is made of green cheese. This wouldn't cause the Moon to turn into green cheese.

The facts of the strata and the fossils that occur on a scale commensurate with the Flood --, and the fossils also point to mass death -- ought to have led you to it already, but the ponderings of scientists reported on this thread manage to ignore these glaring evidences and rationalize them away.

Those are just claims. You need to produce evidence to back these claims.

I knew the Bible was true before I knew anything about creationism. Knowing its true is what got me involved in creationism.

Your beliefs are irrelevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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