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Author Topic:   A Creationist Sues the Grand Canyon for Religious Discrimination
Boof
Member (Idle past 25 days)
Posts: 97
From: Australia
Joined: 08-02-2010


Message 76 of 99 (809545)
05-18-2017 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
05-18-2017 7:23 PM


No magic required
But yes they are being deposited over equally large areas, and to huge thicknesses, right now. That's the elephant in the room you are not seeing.

And please don't start using that 'geological column' terminology again - I've told you previously it's not a term used by geologists and you yourself cant even define what rocks are part of it. If I walk out the door tomorrow and pick up some quartzite or basalt or gneiss how do I know if it's part of your 'geological column' or not? Is the Vishnu Schist part of the column?

And please, please, don't tell me to LOOK at the rocks. I can confidently predict have "REALLY LOOKED" at more rocks before breakfast this morning than you have in your entire lifetime.

- you make the assumption that it all happened in a year when that assumption is not required.


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 Message 74 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 7:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6012
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 77 of 99 (809546)
05-18-2017 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
05-18-2017 5:26 PM


Re: Flood disproved
There would be no way to disprove the Biblical flood if the Bible is true.

The flood has been disproved, so obviously the bible is not true in this regard.

There was one body of land at Genesis 1:10 as all the water was gathered to one place in Genesis 1:9.

This body of land would have still been in existence at the time of the flood in Genes chapter 6, 7.

The earth was then divided into what we see today during the days of Peleg.

The last time all the land masses were together was about 175 million years ago.

All the mountains were formed during this division.

Which would make it impossible for you to find a trace of a world wide flood.

So, you have to also claim there were humans round 175 million years ago, and that the flood occurred that long ago. There is no evidence for either.

But there is no doubt that every inch of dry land we have today was covered with water in the past. Which agrees with Genesis 1:2.

There is no evidence for a global flood during historic times.

Lets see now I have 3 scientific facts that support words that were written over 3400 years ago.

One land mass.
land mass covered with water
divided land mass

All of which never happened during human history.

You're not doing very well, eh?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3827
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 78 of 99 (809547)
05-18-2017 9:07 PM


Topic theme abandonment
Anyone care to take a look at message 1, and post something topic theme related?

Otherwise, going into summary mode soon.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that.

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6012
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 79 of 99 (809548)
05-18-2017 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
05-18-2017 5:51 PM


Belief vs. facts
As I understand it I'm allowed to start from my biblical premises in this debate.

Just because you believe something doesn't make it factual.

Nor are we required to accept anything just because you happen to believe it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 5:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 80 of 99 (809555)
05-18-2017 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
05-18-2017 5:52 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
The mere existence of such a depth of strata and such an abundance of dead things is what I'm talking about, that alone is the evidence for the Flood, there is no other explanation needed.

But we have an explanation for that and for the things you can't explain. Also our explanation doesn't involve magic. So we win.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 5:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1586
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 81 of 99 (809556)
05-18-2017 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
05-17-2017 4:43 PM


My own opinion on the lawsuit against Grand Canyon National Park is that it is purely a nuisance suit. The rock layers are accessible outside the park boundaries.

I was quite surprised that this topic got this much attention, although most was off topic.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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ICANT
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 82 of 99 (809557)
05-18-2017 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
05-18-2017 6:19 PM


Re: Flood disproved
Hi Cat

Cat writes:

I uploaded that picture six years ago and this is not the first or second time I've linked to it.

Are you saying science is wrong and Pangaea never existed?

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-18-2017 6:19 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 83 of 99 (809558)
05-18-2017 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
05-18-2017 6:39 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Hi Faith,

Faith writes:

I know you have to believe it, but it's utterly absurd.

Was there strata in the earth prior to the flood?

What happened to it?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 6:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 84 of 99 (809567)
05-19-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
05-18-2017 11:45 PM


Re: Flood disproved
Cat writes:

I uploaded that picture six years ago and this is not the first or second time I've linked to it.

Are you saying science is wrong and Pangaea never existed?

WTF? I'm saying that you are wrong to say that the water being in one place necessitates the land being in one place - which is refuted by seeing the water in one place but the land in two places.

Cut the gish gallop and deal with the argument.

Now, you've done this same thing in the past when we've discussed this. Here are the other images I uploaded years ago:

Notice how in those drawings of Pangea that the water is in multiple places - the water is not in one place. The water being in one place would require Pangea having no inland water and that is stupid.

Edited by New Cat's Eye, : typo


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 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2017 11:45 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 85 of 99 (809588)
05-19-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ICANT
05-18-2017 5:37 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
ICANT writes:

It is actually based on your assumption of what the Bible flood would have been. What the land mass was like, and the location of the land mass.

Not at all. We can directly observe that floods deposit coarse grained sediments. They don't deposit hundreds of feet of microorganisms like those found in the massive chalk deposits in Europe. Floods don't produce alternating layers of finely grained clay and diatoms, in which leaf and insect debris is sorted in those layers by their 14C content. Floods don't produce massive thick layers of extremely small particle size, like those found in shales.

Again, this is all based on observation, not assumption.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 86 of 99 (809589)
05-19-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
05-18-2017 7:23 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
That's such nonsense. Sediments as we see them in the geological column, such as in the GC, covering such huge areas to such huge depths, are not being deposited around the world.

About 70% of the Earth is currently experiencing that very type of deposition. Have you heard of the oceans?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 7:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 05-19-2017 11:14 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 87 of 99 (809592)
05-19-2017 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
05-18-2017 6:39 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

The explanation is that they aren't.

Your denial carries no weight because you already stated that you have to believe that these strata are not separated by millions of years, and you have to believe this no matter what.

Obviously there is something wrong with your dating systems.

I didn't say anything about dates. I said that they should all have the same 14C content. I am simply speaking about the ratio of 14C to 12C found in organic material in these sediments. Again, no dates.

If you went around right now and measured the 14C/12C content of terrestrial organisms, be they trees or humans, you would find that they all have nearly the same 14C/12C content. That is because terrestrial organisms are in equilibrium with the 14C/12C ratio found in the atmosphere. Plants fix carbon dioxide from the atmosphere into their tissues, herbivores eat those plants and take on that carbon, and then carnivores eat those herbivores and take on their carbon.

Therefore, if all this organic material was buried at the same time then it should all have the same 14C/12C content. It doesn't. Therefore, they could not have been buried at the same time.

Why? There are also sandstone layers that are hundreds of feet thick. All the layers were obviously deposited by the same means. Just look at them. Oh I know it's hopeless.

Chalk layers are made up of tiny, tiny microorganisms called coccolithophores:

It takes long time periods for them to grow and settle to the bottom of the ocean. You also need calm water for long time periods for them to settle to the bottom. A flood can't produce hundreds of feet of microorganisms in a short time span.

Of course, you will just ignore this evidence because you have to, and you have admitted as much.


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 Message 72 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 6:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 99 (809593)
05-19-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Taq
05-19-2017 11:03 AM


No geo column in the oceans
Nobody ever shows the strata at the bottom of the oceans of course though it keeps being pushed as the ongoing site of the same kind of sedimentation as the geological column. Of course it's not and couldn't possibly be. Flat layers of sediments, extensive without encountering obstacles, no, not possible. Compare to walls of Grand Canyon. The geological column is over and done with, a product of the Flood.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Taq, posted 05-19-2017 11:03 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19080
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 89 of 99 (809595)
05-19-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
05-19-2017 11:14 AM


foraminifera, in layers, in the ocean, for over 540 million years
Nobody ever shows the strata at the bottom of the oceans of course though it keeps being pushed as the ongoing site of the same kind of sedimentation as the geological column. Of course it's not and couldn't possibly be. Flat layers of sediments, extensive without encountering obstacles, no, not possible. Compare to walls of Grand Canyon. The geological column is over and done with, a product of the Flood.

Sorry Faith, but wrong again.

foraminifera, in layers, in the ocean, for over 540 million years.

quote:
FORAM FACTS AN
INTRODUCTION TO FORAMINIFERA

Foraminifera (forams for short) are single-celled organisms (protists) with shells or tests (a technical term for internal shells). They are abundant as fossils for the last 540 million years. The shells are commonly divided into chambers that are added during growth, though the simplest forms are open tubes or hollow spheres. Depending on the species, the shell may be made of organic compounds, sand grains or other particles cemented together, or crystalline CaCO3 (calcite or aragonite).

There are an estimated 4,000 species living in the world's oceans today. Of these, 40 species are planktonic, that is they float in the water. The remainder live on or in the sand, mud, rocks and plants at the bottom of the ocean. Foraminifera are found in all marine environments, from the intertidal to the deepest ocean trenches, and from the tropics to the poles, but species of foraminifera can be very particular about the environmentin which they live. Some are abundant only in the deep ocean, others are found only on coral reefs, and still other species live only in brackish estuaries or intertidal salt marshes.

Foraminifera provide evidence of the relative ages of marine rocks
There are several resons that fossil foraminifera are especially valuable for determining the relative ages of marine rock layers. They have been around since the Cambrian, over 500 million years ago. They show fairly continuous evolutionary development, so different species are found at different times. Forams are abundant and widespread, being found in all marine environments. Finally, they are small and easy to collect, even from deep oil wells.

Some species are geologically short-lived and some forms are only found in specific environments. Therefore, a paleontologist can examine the specimens in a small rock sample like those recovered during the drilling of oil wells and determine the geologic age and environment when the rock formed. As a result, since the 1920's the oil industry has been an important employer of paleontologists who specialize in these microscopic fossils. Stratigraphic control using foraminifera is so precise that these fossils are even used to direct sideways drilling within an oil-bearing horizon to increase well productivity.


Pretty little things. Set in the spacial-temporal matrix in the seabed, they identify different ages for the sedimentary deposits they are found buried in.

quote:
The Foram Fossils, a Classic Tale of Transition

Drs. Tony Arnold (Ph.D., Harvard) and Bill Parker (Ph.D., Chicago) are the developers of what reportedly is the largest, most complete set of data ever compiled on the evolutionary history of an organism. The two scientists have painstakingly pieced together a virtually unbroken fossil record that shows in stunning detail how a single-celled marine organism has evolved during the past 66 million years. Apparently, it's the only fossil record known to science that has no obvious gaps -- no "missing links."

"It's all here -- a complete record," says Arnold. "There are other good examples, but this is by far the best. We're seeing the whole picture of how this organism has changed throughout most of its existence on Earth."

But it's the planktonic variety that chiefly interests Parker and Arnold. Unlike their oversized cousins, free-swimming forams are found wherever the oceans have, or had, currents -- in a word, everywhere. For nearly a century, geologists have used the animals' tiny, fossilized shells, found in abundance in marine and some terrestrial deposits, to help establish the age of sediments and to gain insight into prehistoric climates.

"This is the same organism, as it existed through 500,000 years," Arnold said. "We've got hundreds of examples like this, complete life and evolutionary histories for dozens of species."

The exhaustive species collection also is exceptionally well-preserved, which accounts largely for the excitement shared by Parker and Arnold. "Most fossils, particularly those of the vertebrates, are fragmented -- just odds and ends," Parker said. "But these fossils are almost perfectly preserved, despite being millions of years old. We have the whole creature, minus the protoplasm."

One of the last great extinctions occurred roughly 66 million years ago, and according to one popular theory it resulted from Earth's receiving a direct hit from a large asteroid. Whatever the cause, the event proved to be the dinosaurs' coup de grace, and also wiped out a good portion of Earth's marine life -- including almost all species of planktonic forams.

Some scientists have theorized, but never been able to demonstrate, that in the absence of competition, an explosion of life takes place. The evolution of new species is greatly accelerated, and a profusion of body shapes and sizes bursts across the horizon, filling up vacant spaces like weeds overtaking a pristine lawn. An array of new forms fan out into these limited niches, where crowding soon forces most of the new forms to spin out into oblivion, as sparks from a flame.

As foram survivors rush to occupy their new habitats, they seem to start experimenting will all sorts of body shapes, trying to find something stable, something that will work, Arnold said. Once a population in a given habitat develops a shape or other characteristic that stands up to the environment, suddenly the organisms begin to coalesce around what becomes a standardized form, the signature of a new species.

As the available niches begin to fill up with these new creatures, the speciation rate begins to slow down, and pressure from competition between species appears to bear down in earnest. The extinction rate then rises accordingly.


Speciation and transitions mapped against time for the layered deposits.

Not the Grand Canyon, so not topical for further comment.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 05-19-2017 11:14 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 90 of 99 (809601)
05-19-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
05-19-2017 11:14 AM


Re: No geo column in the oceans
Faith writes:

Nobody ever shows the strata at the bottom of the oceans of course though it keeps being pushed as the ongoing site of the same kind of sedimentation as the geological column. Of course it's not and couldn't possibly be. Flat layers of sediments, extensive without encountering obstacles, no, not possible. Compare to walls of Grand Canyon. The geological column is over and done with, a product of the Flood.

I see a lot of claims, but zero evidence to back them up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 05-19-2017 11:14 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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