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Author Topic:   What happened at Fatima, Portugal between May & October 1917? Six Mary appearances?
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 981
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Message 1 of 18 (809368)
05-17-2017 10:06 PM


I have seen descriptions of the Fatima appearances while reading about unidentified flying objects.

During one of the sightings, a super wet crowd of thousands were miraculously dried after a UFO broke through the thick rain clowds. The ground went from being very muddy and in like a minute became crusty dry.

Why was a crowd there?

Because previously private appearances of "Mary" to Lucia Dos Santos, Francisco Marto, and Jacinta Marto involved specific details describing future time and place visitations - yes, they were spoken words from the supernatural entity .

So it resulted in the 3 kids talking about the future visit, and the results included crowds forming for the hopes of being witness to the vision that might happen.

It wound up being a mass vision.

The kids were threatened by local authorities with death by boiling oil if they didn't recant their story. But they held fast.

Lucia Dos Santos live till 2005 when the 97 year old died. (Though there is a conspiracy theory around that describes the 97 year old as an imposter and not the "real Sister Lucia" )

I wonder if this evidence counts as something abnormal or just a mass hallucination. Or outright fraud.

The first thing we can do is be grateful for so many witnesses and the other thing should be gratitude for some witnesses being around for so long. The Catholic Church accepted the appearances as real back in 1930 fwiw.

Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed dates


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AdminPhat
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Message 2 of 18 (809370)
05-18-2017 5:58 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the What happened at Fatima, Portugal between May & October 2017? Six Mary appearances? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

This topic is better than your other PNT because it is more specific as to a definite topic.

Edited by AdminPhat, : added


    
New Cat's Eye
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Message 3 of 18 (809376)
05-18-2017 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
05-17-2017 10:06 PM


I don't know what happened, but that is past tense and Oct 2017 is in the future

Typo?


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jar
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From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 4 of 18 (809380)
05-18-2017 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
05-17-2017 10:06 PM


LNA writes:

During one of the sightings, a super wet crowd of thousands were miraculously dried after a UFO broke through the thick rain clowds. The ground went from being very muddy and in like a minute became crusty dry.

I'm sorry but once something that silly gets introduced into a discussion all that's left to do is laugh.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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LamarkNewAge
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Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 5 of 18 (809427)
05-18-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
05-18-2017 9:10 AM


Prominent skeptic Joe and his inquiry.
I put Fatima 1917 into google, and every hit was right on topic.

https://www.google.com/#q=FATIMA+1917&spf=1495119829419

I found this hit

http://www.livescience.com/29290-fatima-miracle.html

quote:

The Lady of Fátima & the Miracle of the Sun

By Benjamin Radford, Live Science Contributor | May 2, 2013 06:47pm ET

The story of a famous miracle in Fátima, Portugal, began in May 1917, when three children (ages 7, 9, and 10) claimed to have encountered the Virgin Mary on their way home from tending a flock of sheep. The oldest girl, Lucia, was the only one to speak to her, and Mary told the children that she would reappear to them on the thirteenth day of the next six months. She then vanished.

The children soon told their parents, and while some in the village didn't believe their tale, others did — and told more people. As the weeks and months passed, more and more of the faithful made pilgrimages to Fátima, where the children claimed to receive Mary's visits. Still no one else saw the Virgin Mary; instead, the gathered adults would stand riveted as Lucia took the lead and began to describe her visions.

It was Mary's final appearance, on Oct. 13, 1917, that became the most famous. In his book "Looking for a Miracle," Joe Nickell states that "an estimated 70,000 people were in attendance at the site, anticipating the Virgin's final visit and with many fully expecting that she would work a great miracle. As before, the figure appeared, and again only to the children. Identifying herself as 'the Lady of the Rosary,' she urged repentance and the building of a chapel at the site. After predicting an end to [World War I] and giving the children certain undisclosed visions, the lady lifted her hands to the sky. Thereupon Lucia exclaimed, 'The sun!' As everyone gazed upward, and saw that a silvery disc had emerged from behind clouds, they experienced what is known [as] a 'sun miracle'."


Here is the wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

I haven't found much discussion of the dry clothes & mud issue.

But most of the criticism centers around the idea that , "It surely couldn't have been anything real since we all have the same Sun, and nobody anywhere else (outside Fatima) saw the sun move around and shine all silvery".

The weight of criticism of a abnormal event seems to be that "the sun just doesn't do that".

I think it is much better to see this as a UFO type of event, and a darn credible one at that.

I say credible because the UFO issues back in this time involved cigar shaped zeppelin type of craft, and not silvery, shining discs.

Here was my description of descriptions I heard:

quote:

During one of the sightings, a super wet crowd of thousands were miraculously dried after a UFO broke through the thick rain clowds. The ground went from being very muddy and in like a minute became crusty dry.

Jar said this:

quote:

I'm sorry but once something that silly gets introduced into a discussion all that's left to do is laugh.

Nice to see that the spirit of free and open inquiry is alive and well here at EvC.

Here are some pastes from the Wikipedia link.

quote:

Miracle of the Sun
....
The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: O Milagre do Sol) was an event which occurred on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered near Fátima, Portugal in response to a prophecy made by three shepherd children that the Virgin Mary, referred to as Our Lady of Fatima, would appear and perform miracles on that date. Newspapers published testimony from reporters and other people who claimed to have witnessed extraordinary solar activity, such as seeing the sun "dance" or zig-zag in the sky, careen towards the earth, or emit multicolored light and radiant colors. According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes.

The event was officially accepted as a miracle by the Catholic Church on 13 October 1930. On 13 October 1951, the papal legate, Cardinal Tedeschini, told the million people gathered at Fátima that on 30 October, 31 October, 1 November, and 8 November 1950, Pope Pius XII himself witnessed the miracle of the sun from the Vatican gardens.[1][2]

There has been much analysis of the event from critical sociological and scientific perspectives. According to critics, the eyewitness testimony was actually a collection of inconsistent and contradictory accounts. Proposed alternate explanations include witnesses being deceived by their senses due to prolonged staring at the sun and then seeing what they had come to the site expecting to see - something unusual.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9]


Then

quote:

Believers' explanation

Religion, science and history

Research director of the Ian Ramsey Centre for Science and Religion at Oxford University, Fr Andrew Pinsent, states that "a scientific perspective does not rule out miracles, and the event at Fatima is, in the view of many, particularly credible." He states that a usual prejudice involves a lack of understanding of the scope of scientific laws, which merely describe how natural systems behave isolated from free agents. Concluding that the event is "a public miracle of the most extraordinary kind and credibility", he sees the year of the event, as connected to significant historical milestones that call for Fatima's message of repentance: Protestantism in 1517, Freemasonry in 1717 and Atheistic Communism in 1917.[33]


That was Oxford, but there is a lot of Wikipedia text on critical views of the event.

I feel that it is foolish to laugh at an event that had so many witnesses, and also keeping in mind that it was really a modern era documented phenomenon. Full of interviews of witnesses, media reports, university attention, skeptical investigations and the like.

There is an investigation.

All agree that the children told people that October 13 would be a special date, and long before the actual day.

There is an ongoing investigation.

And the issue hasn't been settled.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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Phat
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Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 6 of 18 (809435)
05-18-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by LamarkNewAge
05-18-2017 11:45 AM


Re: Prominent skeptic Joe and his inquiry.
You are starting to overuse google again to generate responses to your topic.

What do YOU think? (Not what have others said)

Is Mary any more blessed or powerful than any other human?

Personally, I limit power to Jesus alone. Others, such as jar, even go so far as to say Jesus was simply human while on earth.

Any supernatural (or UFO) experiences are limited to speculation.

I will admit, however, that this was one of the ones that had a larger crowd...seemingly lending weight to any future speculation.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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ringo
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Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 7 of 18 (809438)
05-18-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by LamarkNewAge
05-18-2017 11:45 AM


Re: Prominent skeptic Joe and his inquiry.
LamarkNewAge writes:

I feel that it is foolish to laugh at an event that had so many witnesses....


What distinguishes that event from people seeing the image of Jesus in an oil stain in a parking lot?
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 8 of 18 (809568)
05-19-2017 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
05-18-2017 11:59 AM


Re: Prominent skeptic Joe and his inquiry.
If you stare at reality long enough you will see what you WANT to see.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 981
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 9 of 18 (809886)
05-22-2017 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
05-18-2017 11:53 AM


Is Mary any more blessed or powerful than other humans?
Then Phat said that "supernatural (or UFO) experiences are limited to speculation "

The child later known as "Sister Lucia " lived till 2005 . (If you accept the imposter theory, then she still lived at least 40 years after 1917 I think )

She was the devout Christian medium that heard and saw the "Mary" entity.

She alone talked to "Mary "

We have the witness of one.

The Mary entity told her that October 13,1917 would be a date that she would appear again to Lucia and it would be accompanied with a miracle that all would witness.

70,000 people showed up.

Little Lucia couldn't have planned on some optical trick brought about by eyes staring too long at the sun, could she?

The spontaneous nature of the events of that day are very hard to deny. Agreed? Do we all agree?

People might think that humans can see what they want to see, but there is a difference between suddenly and temporarily seeing something unexpected verses long held artifacts being studied for long periods of time by staring eyes.

Little Lucia was talking to Mary for hours, then on her own (without Mary mentioning the sun ) said, "the sun", in a moment of noticing a shinning disc move around below the sun. Witnesses said it moved all around for about a minute or so. Then it stopped.

The brief fleeting moment became known as "The Miracle of the Sun ".

Lucia planned that?

Really?


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Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 18 (809888)
05-22-2017 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
05-17-2017 10:06 PM


spiritual deception
I did some reading about both UFOs and apparitions of Mary some years ago, read a book about the apparition at Medjugorje, only know a little about Fatima.

Ufologist Jacques Vallee wrote a book about UFOs that argues against the ET idea and describes them as "spiritual phenomena" intended to deceive. He compares them to fairies and leprechauns and other such figures down through history, saying their behavior is much more like those phenomena, appearing and disappearing and that sort of thing, than like anything from another planet, or the physical universe. I was a fairly new Christian at the time and thought his analysis fascinating. He's not a believer, just made comparisons with those folklore tales and found them similar.

So I think the comparison between UFOs and Marian apparitions is right on. I think they are the same phenomena, something conjured up by the demons or fallen angels to deceive the human race. I don't know about the "miracles" but demons can do some illusions and even "manifest" some objects, so I've heard.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 981
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 11 of 18 (809996)
05-22-2017 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
05-22-2017 2:30 AM


Faith: "comparison between UFOs and Marian apparitions is right on"
Faith.

So you don't question that something abnormal happened on October 13 in Fatima?

I feel like I have to clarify the UFO miracle from the solar miracle theory.

I feel that the UFO was misidentified as the sun.

This might not be the best illustration, but I will use this unrelated May 4 2017 New York Post article to try to make my point. It is about the Battle of Coral Sea in World War II, and the journalist is Ruth Brown.

quote:

The Japanese planes roared in like summer thunderstorms, raining brief but brutal bullets and bombs into the sticky South Pacific air and onto the US and Australian warships below.

The dive bombers looked as if they were coming "right out of the sun" says Roger Spooner, who was just a 19-year-old farm boy from Georgia...


Now, the optical perspective among the folks at Fatima seems to indicate that a very bright circular object took a overwhelmingly dominate position in the respective witnesses field of vision. The object appears to have started (intentionally?) its attention-getting phase by superimposing itself over the (much dimmer ) sun, which itself was only previously seen behind cloud cover. The UFO was so bright that the sun couldn't be seen at all, and that was apparently still true even after the misidentified "solar" object started to move around away from the superimposed eclipse position of the actual sun. The big, bright UFO was simply all that the witnesses could see, and they thought that it was indeed the sun.

The fact that little Lucia called attention to "The Sun " just as the object started its decent - as it revealed itself - only guaranteed the confusion of the UFO with the sun would be made right from the start, when it might have been possible to distinguish the two totally separate objects before the optics would have totally prevented such a distinction.

Hence the name of the October 13 ,1917 event was described as The Miracle of The Sun, and the idea is that the Sun actually did all the moving around that day.

My hypothesis (admittedly not original, but still a little heard minority view among those who feel the event was truly abnormal and not some imagined and confused non-event ) assumes that UFOs have genuine manifestations ( surely a strike against the theory ),but it has the advantage of taking the witnesses' statements as far as their testimony truly deserves. It also includes the advantage of taking the three little kids as honest as well.

I figured out that I might as well just let the best possible hypothesis be the best (for now ) conclusion that we should cautiously take.


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Dredge
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Posts: 632
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 12 of 18 (810238)
05-26-2017 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
05-17-2017 10:06 PM


LamarkNewAge writes:

a UFO broke through the thick rain clouds


This is a lie - for starters, no one had even heard of UFOs in 1917! The true Fatima account has nothing whatsoever to do with Little Green Men flying around in UFOs.
the kids were threatened ... with death by boiling oil if they didn't recant their story

More nonsense.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 13 of 18 (810274)
05-26-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dredge
05-26-2017 12:03 AM


Dredge writes:

... for starters, no one had even heard of UFOs in 1917!


False.

See Wikipedia:

quote:
On January 25, 1878, the Denison Daily News printed an article in which John Martin, a local farmer, had reported seeing a large, dark, circular object resembling a balloon flying "at wonderful speed." Martin, according to the newspaper account, said it appeared to be about the size of a saucer, the first known use of the word "saucer" in association with a UFO.[25]

In April 1897, thousands of people reported seeing "airships" in various parts of the United States. Many signed affidavits. Scores of people even reported talking to the pilots. Thomas Edison was asked his opinion, and said, "You can take it from me that it is a pure fake."[26][27]

On February 28, 1904, there was a sighting by three crew members on the USS Supply 300 miles (483 km) west of San Francisco, reported by Lieutenant Frank Schofield, later to become Commander-in-Chief of the Pacific Battle Fleet. Schofield wrote of three bright red egg-shaped and circular objects flying in echelon formation that approached beneath the cloud layer, then changed course and "soared" above the clouds, departing directly away from the earth after two to three minutes. The largest had an apparent size of about six Suns, he said.[28][29]



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Dredge
Member
Posts: 632
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 14 of 18 (810278)
05-27-2017 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
05-26-2017 12:07 PM


Nevertheless, none of the appartitions accepted by the Catholic Church contain UFOlogy in any way, shape or form.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 15 of 18 (810290)
05-27-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dredge
05-27-2017 12:10 AM


Dredge writes:

Nevertheless, none of the appartitions accepted by the Catholic Church contain UFOlogy in any way, shape or form.


As far as I know, you're right. Any talk about UFOs is just adding another layer of silliness.
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