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Author Topic:   The story of Bones and Dogs and Humans
RAZD
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Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 16 of 56 (810356)
05-28-2017 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Davidjay
05-28-2017 9:07 AM


Re: Delete your dog graphics
Razz, just delete your dog graphics and change your wording so as not to deceive READERS who would think that dog inbreeding is a proof of evolution.

Except that nobody that actually reads what is said about them is deceived. It seems only you have a problem understanding what the graphic is used for -- the extent of variability possible via selection within a species.

You cant magically mystically make such an outrageous claim using inbreeding as your basis. Thats unscientific and bogus. Prove it...

Not inbreeding but artificial selection, picking traits to preserve, and cross-breeding to develop new mixtures of existing traits. That inbreeding occurs in order to maintain stasis in a "purebred" population is not an issue for what selection can accomplish because we can see what it has accomplished: the evidence is right there in plain sight.

The same can be said for all the breeds of cows, sheep, horses, pigs, cats, etc etc etc.

All the dogs remain dogs, and yet you claim that humans came from apes, and then according to your dog analogy, means that apes and us are the same.

Not the 'same' (not identical) per se, but not much more different than breeds of dogs differ: can you point to a difference between chimps and humans that is not like a difference between breeds?

We ARE apes and we, and all other apes, ARE primates,. Even Linnaeus classified humans as primates.

So it remains ...

Ridiculous and DESPERATE...

... to ignore the evidence. Denial of reality is delusion.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Davidjay, posted 05-28-2017 9:07 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Davidjay, posted 05-28-2017 10:14 AM RAZD has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 17 of 56 (810360)
05-28-2017 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by RAZD
05-28-2017 9:57 AM


Re: Delete your dog graphics
Youre getting more and more desperate all the time, and even trickier all the time Razz.

Except that nobody that actually reads what is said about them is deceived. It seems only you have a problem understanding what the graphic is used for -- the extent of variability possible via selection within a species.

Notice how Razz uses the word 'possible', as all things are possible via luck and chance and inbreeding says Razz....

Not inbreeding but artificial selection, picking traits to preserve, and cross-breeding to develop new mixtures of existing traits. That inbreeding occurs in order to maintain stasis in a "purebred" population is not an issue for what selection can accomplish because we can see what it has accomplished: the evidence is right there in plain sight.

The same can be said for all the breeds of cows, sheep, horses, pigs, cats, etc etc etc.

Inbreeding is inbreeding, man made selection to bring out strengths and weaknesses within a species. Stop the denials Razz, different dog breeds are still dogs, they dont turn into cows as you hope and pray your evolutionary god did. Inbreeding is not a proof of evolution and you can not mystically jump the GAP and say evolution did... crazy and desperate Razz

Not the 'same' (not identical) per se, but not much more different than breeds of dogs differ: can you point to a difference between chimps and humans that is not like a difference between breeds?

We ARE apes and we, and all other apes, ARE primates,. Even Linnaeus classified humans as primates.

So it remains ...

Maybe you are, at least in your mind... but Im a human who came from my ancestry called humans. But thanks again for showing your desperation...

Not the same is semantics, and you know it..... back to word twisting Razz...as that is all evolution has as proofs.

'But not much more different" there it is again folks and brethren. Razz thinks a comparison, of not much more different will seduce you into thinking evolution must have magically jumped the gap and made a new species.... when different dog breeds are still dogs.... different cat breeds are still cats.

Evolutionists are such l****, or delusionalists, and so desperate to try and prove their delusions and artists conceptions....

Its just made up graphs and graphics and composed semantics READERS....

Forget evolution its a L** and a con.


Evolutionists are brainless whoosies, gutless and cowards.
They are not scientists, but religionists that choose to deny facts and truths of science. Intelligence and design always defeats their lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is a losers doctrine, simply because they are either lazy or dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 05-28-2017 9:57 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 05-28-2017 10:26 AM Davidjay has responded
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 05-29-2017 8:41 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5989
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 18 of 56 (810361)
05-28-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Davidjay
05-28-2017 10:14 AM


Re: Delete your dog graphics
Speaking of dogs, you're a one-trick pony.

You're not even amusing any longer, just tedious and repetitious. And a loser.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Davidjay, posted 05-28-2017 10:14 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Davidjay, posted 05-28-2017 10:31 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 19 of 56 (810363)
05-28-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Coyote
05-28-2017 10:26 AM


Re: Delete your dog graphics
C******* are dogs, lets face it..... and people called c****** are also not amusing, and add nothing to the topic, or the discussion or the research thread.

Censored.......

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 05-28-2017 10:26 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Admin, posted 05-29-2017 7:43 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12528
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 20 of 56 (810396)
05-29-2017 7:41 AM


Moderator Request
Please focus on the topic and not the people discussing the topic. I'll be issuing suspensions to those who comment on those they're discussing with. For those curious, the length of suspension that follows a one week suspension is four weeks.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12528
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 21 of 56 (810397)
05-29-2017 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Davidjay
05-28-2017 10:31 AM


Re: Delete your dog graphics
Hi Davidjay,

Please remove the insult from your signature.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Davidjay, posted 05-28-2017 10:31 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 22 of 56 (810403)
05-29-2017 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Davidjay
05-28-2017 10:14 AM


dogs are still dogs is the point ...
Notice how Razz uses the word 'possible', as all things are possible via luck and chance and inbreeding says Razz....

Yes when you throw a single di ... according to Davidjay anway ... you can get any number you want ... because "all things are possible via luck and chance" ...

... man made selection to bring out strengths and weaknesses within a species. ... different dog breeds are still dogs, ...

Which is actually the point of my argument -- that they show extensive variation but are still Canis familiaris (that means dogs, Davidjay, specifically domesticated dogs).

Just as all the varieties of domesticated cows are still Bos taurus ... and all the varieties of domesticated sheep are still Ovis aries ... (including the black ones).

This amount of variation shows what is possible within a species when selection within reproductively isolated populations causes different traits to survive and reproduce.

Put another way these variation in domesticated breeds shows there is no barrier to these traits and changes occurring: they have been observed and documented.

So when we see a fossil record such as for Pelycodus:

quote:

Pelycodus was a tree-dwelling primate that looked much like a modern lemur. The skull shown is probably 7.5 centimeters long.

The numbers down the left hand side indicate the depth (in feet) at which each group of fossils was found. As is usual in geology, the diagram gives the data for the deepest (oldest) fossils at the bottom, and the upper (youngest) fossils at the top. The diagram covers about five million years.

The numbers across the bottom are a measure of body size. Each horizontal line shows the range of sizes that were found at that depth. The dark part of each line shows the average value, and the standard deviation around the average.


We can see that the changes in body size between layers is well within the parameters of body size variation in dogs, and thus well within the known limits of size change for a species.

We can see that there is a trend to larger and larger body size, until at Pelycodus jarrovii all the individuals in the breeding population are larger than all the individuals in the Pelycodus ralstoni breeding population, even though at each stage the changes in body size between layers is well within the parameters of body size variation in dogs, and thus well within the known limits of size change for a species.

They are also still Pelycodus ... then at the top we see a divide, where one breeding population selects for smaller size while the other continues to select for larger size ... and yet that size variation in each population is still within the parameters of body size variation in dogs, and thus well within the known limits of size change for a species.

Thus we can see in the fossil record that mutation and natural selection accomplish the same (or less) variation than seen with domesticated animals.

We can also look an human ancestry in the fossil record the same way, as seen in Message 1:

quote:
Now let's add a composite Australopithicus, based mostly on Lucy, but with parts added from other fossils, such as skull and feet (note skeletons not scaled the same):

Let's put Ardi in a line-up with Humans, Australopithicus and Chimps (note skeletons not scaled the same):

Is the variation in traits seen in the bones between modern humans and Ardi more or less than the variation seen in dogs?

Inquiring minds want to know.

If the variation between species seen in the fossil record is less than that seen in dogs, then it is logical and reasonable that the younger species can have evolved from the older species, especially if found in close proximity within the spacial-temporal matrix.


The evident answer for those inquiring minds, is that yes, we see less variation between Ardipiticus ramidus and modern man (Homo sapiens) than we see withing the dog species. The outlier, the one showing the most variation, in the pictures, is actually the Gorilla, with the crest on the skull and the extended neck vertebrae.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : link

Edited by Admin, : Reduce image width.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Davidjay, posted 05-28-2017 10:14 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 10:36 AM RAZD has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 23 of 56 (810408)
05-29-2017 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
05-29-2017 8:41 AM


Re: dogs are still dogs is the point ...
Using the excuse of variation or variety within a species or biblical KIND is not proof of evolution. It is a cop out and a desperate ploy to try and show evidence where no evidence exists.

Going from genetic recombination variety as dictated and approved by, by the Lord of Creation is NOT EVOLUTION. Inbreeding is not evolution, its a horrible desperate leap from genetic combinations to evolutionary newness and diversity of life and branching.

And as has been proven, branching dictates that evolution is a racist doctrine.

Dogs are not proof that cats came into existence. Dogs create dogs, all sorts of dogs.

Genetics 101..... or common sense.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 05-29-2017 8:41 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 05-29-2017 10:45 AM Davidjay has responded
 Message 32 by RAZD, posted 05-31-2017 5:46 AM Davidjay has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 24 of 56 (810412)
05-29-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 10:36 AM


Davidjay simply keeps lying!
Davidjay writes:

And as has been proven, branching dictates that evolution is a racist doctrine.

That is simply another example of you lying.

That has not been proven and in fact you failed to offer any support for that assertion even in your own thread on the subject.

Davidjay writes:

Dogs are not proof that cats came into existence.

You also continue to make assertions that are things no one but you ever said and pretend you are refuting stuff.

No one but you has ever suggested dogs as proof that cats exist.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 10:36 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 11:24 AM jar has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 25 of 56 (810427)
05-29-2017 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
05-29-2017 10:45 AM


Re:Stop using the L word
Please dont use my name in your topic and call me a liar.

In your thesis, say David Jay Jordan has not proven to evolutionists that they are mistaken, and that they refuse to admit they have made a great mistake in assuming dogs created new different species called variant dogs, that variated from the original dogs in superficial ways. Say it is untrue, but not the deflamatory...Lie word, that would suggest you want DJJ banned because you keep losing arguments with him, and cant convince him to be an evolutionist. Neither can he convince you to drop the dog graphs that branch out, not convine you to be intelligent designers.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 05-29-2017 10:45 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 05-29-2017 12:03 PM Davidjay has responded
 Message 29 by Admin, posted 05-30-2017 8:33 AM Davidjay has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 26 of 56 (810437)
05-29-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 11:24 AM


Stop lying Davidjay.
Then Davidjay, stop lying!

Stop misrepresenting what others say.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 11:24 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:08 PM jar has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 27 of 56 (810456)
05-29-2017 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
05-29-2017 12:03 PM


Re: Stop lying Davidjay.
Jar stop callng me a liar, you would never ever do it in person. So dont do it online. Stop posting enflamatory statements just because you want to accuse me of misrepresenting you and your beloved doctrine. Just defend your words and ideas, rather than all the false accussations of misrepresentation.

So stop labeling your titles "Stop lying DavidJay'.

Its subjective rather tyhan objective.

You could say 'Creationism is a lie', not the 'Creator is a liar'..... learn to have class not the lack of class.

Now back to the title and topic of dogs and humans.

Inbreeding of dogs into varieties is not a proof of evolution, and graphics showing this variety of dogs can not be shown to validate evolution, or pretend that a huge gap can or could or might have or eventually will produce a new animal that is not a dog.

Thats a stretch, a false claim, a desperate ploy, and an untruth.

Evolution needs a wants some kind of evidence, but please enough of this so called inbreeding proofs with your pretty pictures and branching.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 05-29-2017 12:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 05-29-2017 7:42 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 28 of 56 (810461)
05-29-2017 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 7:08 PM


Re: Stop lying Davidjay.
Stop lying and I will stop pointing out that you are a liar.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:08 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12528
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 29 of 56 (810481)
05-30-2017 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 11:24 AM


Re: Re:Stop using the L word
Hi Davidjay,

As moderator I can protect you from accusations of lying, but you first have to stop making misrepresentations. Here you accuse evolutionists of believing something they clearly don't:

... that they refuse to admit they have made a great mistake in assuming dogs created new different species called variant dogs,...

And here in your signature you misrepresent again by rebutting claims never made by evolutionists:

It [evolution] didn't create the laws that exist nor did it create science.

You're also having trouble staying on topic in some threads, e.g., Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 11:24 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 9:26 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 30 of 56 (810484)
05-30-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Admin
05-30-2017 8:33 AM


Re: Re:Stop using the L word
Strange I can be off topic on topics I start and am responding to... but if you say so.

Maybe later evolutionists can clarify that they dont believe one species turns into another species. I thought and studied that this was the case when forced to study evolution in university.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Admin, posted 05-30-2017 8:33 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 9:29 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
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