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Author Topic:   The story of Bones and Dogs and Humans
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19217
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 46 of 56 (810848)
06-02-2017 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Davidjay
06-01-2017 11:29 AM


Re: Dogs are still dogs is the point ... and Davidjay is still lying
Your first post and original post and GRAPHICS depicts a wolf becoming different dog breeds and then you suggesting that this variation is proof that evolution can jump the gap into new KINDS.

Nope. Try again, this time with understanding of what is actually written.

Not just a variation of dogs but a new KIND or new species.

Nope. Try again, this time with understanding of what is actually written.

So Yes you are free to remove your original graphics that suggest and you later suggest proves evolution.

Nope. Try again, this time with understanding of what is actually written.

No problem simply remove the graphics and edit out your jumping gap proof.

Except that the only problem is your misunderstanding (or your intentional misrepresentation).

And then you might also consider choosing another occupation that designer, when you always seem to be against design, and the DESIGNER.

Attempts at ad hominum attacks only show the person making them has a weak argument that is not supported by facts and so chooses to attack the messenger instead of the message. Sad and pathetic.

No I am not lying, its your graph, and your words, and your principles of jumping the gap. But if you choose you can state that INBREEDING IS NOT EVOLUTIONARY CHANGE

Says the person intentionally continuing to misrepresent what was actually written.

By the way, you might be interested (probably not) in something called the founder effect:

quote:
In population genetics, the founder effect is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population. It was first fully outlined by Ernst Mayr in 1942,[1] using existing theoretical work by those such as Sewall Wright.[2] As a result of the loss of genetic variation, the new population may be distinctively different, both genotypically and phenotypically, from the parent population from which it is derived. In extreme cases, the founder effect is thought to lead to the speciation and subsequent evolution of new species.

Simple illustration of founder effect: The
original population is on the left with three
possible founder populations on the right.

In the figure shown, the original population has nearly equal numbers of blue and red individuals. The three smaller founder populations show that one or the other color may predominate (founder effect), due to random sampling of the original population. A population bottleneck may also cause a founder effect, though it is not strictly a new population.

The founder effect occurs when a small group of migrants that is not genetically representative of the population from which they came establish in a new area.[3][4] In addition to founder effects, the new population is often a very small population, so shows increased sensitivity to genetic drift, an increase in inbreeding, and relatively low genetic variation. This can be observed in the limited gene pools of Icelanders, Parsis, Ashkenazi Jews, Faroe Islanders, Easter Islanders, and those native to Pitcairn Island. Another example is the remarkably high deaf population of Martha's Vineyard, which resulted in the development of Martha's Vineyard Sign Language.


And it can be readily observed in island populations of species ... such as the species on the Galapagos Islands ...

Curiously I always enjoy taking the opportunity of creationist ignorance and desperate denial to educate them (or at least those who read the posts that are willing to learn) and to help them understand (if they want to) the evolutionary mechanisms.

What we have with dog breeds is not inbreeding per se (some cross-breeding is done to alleviate effects of inbreeding or to develop new breeds), but an artificial selection similar to what occurs naturally with founder effect populations and which does result in evolutionary change in the population.

btw -- you seem to equate evolutionary change with speciation, whether through misunderstanding or intentionally (hyperbole exaggeration logical fallacy), when speciation is actually a rather rare occurrence in the general generation to generation changes of the breeding populations. See anagenesis -- all species undergo anagenesis (it is observed, documented, fact) ... even when cladogenesis occurs each daughter population is undergoing anagenesis.

No I am not lying, its your graph, and your words, and your principles of jumping the gap. But if you choose you can state that INBREEDING IS NOT EVOLUTIONARY CHANGE

You are either lying or incapable of understanding ... for one of several reasons: see Five types of people that don't understand how evolution works

3, 4 or 5 ... take your pick.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Davidjay, posted 06-01-2017 11:29 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19217
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 47 of 56 (810849)
06-02-2017 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by mike the wiz
06-01-2017 3:30 PM


RAZD, I would say this question might be unwittingly incorrect. You seem to be asking if the anatomy of the skeleton, comparative anatomy between skeletons of primates like chimps and humans have more or less variation than, "seen in dogs".

To remain logically correct you must ask, "than seen in dog skeletons".

The purpose of the dogs is to show the variation in phenotypes that can be derived through selection, whether artificial or natural. Natural selection would not (normally) develop all the phenotypes shown by dogs, but logically could have produced any one of them over time. Thus dogs (or cats or cows or sheep or any other domestic breed) give us an idea of the limits of variation within a species while still remaining a species (able to interbreed if given the opportunity).

This "limitation boundary" then applies to all aspects of the phenotype ... but when you are applying that metric to a set of skeletons, then yes you should only look at the skeletons of the dogs. I consider that implicit in the argument.

As for the diagram of, "Ardi" those statements about what Ardi could do, you full well know require an anatomist expert in that field to carefully delineate each and every subtle difference and if the skeleton is not complete and part of the evidence could change those conclusions, then this could affect the validity of the argument.

Curiously those statements were done by "an anatomist expert in that field" ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 3:30 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Davidjay, posted 06-02-2017 11:33 AM RAZD has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 48 of 56 (810866)
06-02-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by RAZD
06-02-2017 7:36 AM


Razz, does your inbreeding creat a new species ?

If so, then it confirms that inbreeding human populations can creat a new species of humans that is not human but a new KInd ? This confirming that evolution is a racist doctrine.

If you deny inbreeding creates a new species, then remove that silly false dog chart that suggests inbred dogs create a new Kind or species.

And enough stupid excuses that say this definition or your new definition excuses you and your dogs.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by RAZD, posted 06-02-2017 7:36 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Davidjay, posted 06-02-2017 11:36 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 06-02-2017 2:08 PM Davidjay has responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 49 of 56 (810867)
06-02-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Davidjay
06-02-2017 11:33 AM


Evolutionists refuse to answer
Evasive, elusive, erratic, errant, evolutionists.... can not answer questions because their theory or god is evasive elusive, erratic, and errant.

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Davidjay, posted 06-02-2017 11:33 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Coyote, posted 06-02-2017 11:51 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6025
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 50 of 56 (810868)
06-02-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Davidjay
06-02-2017 11:36 AM


Re: DJ refuses to answer
Pot, meet kettle!

You have refused to answer the evidence I posted several times disproving the flood at your "exact" date.

And this is just one of the many posts here you have refused to answer.

So get off your high horse unicorn.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Davidjay, posted 06-02-2017 11:36 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19217
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 51 of 56 (810881)
06-02-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Davidjay
06-02-2017 11:33 AM


... does ... inbreeding creat a new species ?

Not by itself.

If so, then it confirms that inbreeding human populations can creat a new species of humans that is not human ...

Even if so it would not create a new species of humans that is not human.

... but a new KInd ? ...

Define "KInd" and then we can discuss this issue.

... This confirming that evolution is a racist doctrine.

A rather silly and easily falsified claim that you have not demonstrated on your thread for that purpose, nor defended it against the various examples that show otherwise. Repeating a claim that has been shown to be false is intentionally repeating a falsehood. That is lying. Stop lying Davidjay.

Only you are seeing this -- or pretending to.

If you deny inbreeding creates a new species, ...

Not by itself.

... then remove that silly false dog chart that suggests inbred dogs create a new Kind or species.

Except that it shows no such thing. It shows the development of varieties. Any species can (and often does) have a number of varieties, but they are all one species and can still interbreed. In humans we call the various varieties "races" ... and as you know all human races can interbreed. This forms hybrids not new species.

Only you have trouble seeing this -- or pretending to.

And enough stupid excuses that say this definition or your new definition excuses you and your dogs.

Your inability, or refusal, or failure to understand what the dogs actually show, and how this relates to actual evolution is not my problem.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Davidjay, posted 06-02-2017 11:33 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Davidjay, posted 06-03-2017 5:25 AM RAZD has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 52 of 56 (810912)
06-03-2017 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by RAZD
06-02-2017 2:08 PM


Talk about a dumb response... Evasive answer and answers, Razz superceeds all other evolutionists in saying nothing and never answering....

does inbreeding creat a new species..Not by itself answsers Razz

What a gutless whimpy reply.. She doesnt say what else is injected into their miracle species creation, just NOT BY ITSELF.....

Is that scientific NO, Is that comprehensible NO... Is that an answer NO.

Dumber than dumb.

Maybe evolutionists want to throw in their god of selection, who knows Razz doesn;t say what else is needed to make inbreeding jump the gap and actually start producing a new species.

But insanely for a rational person says, she can not define a species... or KIND so is unable to answer further.

IE. Dumb evolutionists have nothing but semantics and no science behind their dumb theory. All they have is name changes, literary classifications, and double speak, and artists imaginations.

Yes, evolutionists have great GREAT problems with their lack of evidence and lack of answers. Yet always try to blame those that question them for not understanding their dog pics, and their inbreeding.

Inbreeding does not creat new species or KINDS. Its a BIG LIE of evolution and evolutionists.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 06-02-2017 2:08 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 06-03-2017 5:45 AM Davidjay has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19217
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 53 of 56 (810917)
06-03-2017 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Davidjay
06-03-2017 5:25 AM


Davidjay's Cognitive Dissonance
That's a lot of nonsense with nothing of value to reply to. You seem very desperate to nullify the objective empirical evidence and the information it shows. This is typical cognitive dissonance behavior. See Message 1 for more.

Your false beliefs are interfering with your ability to learn, pathetic and sad.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Davidjay, posted 06-03-2017 5:25 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Davidjay, posted 06-03-2017 5:55 AM RAZD has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 54 of 56 (810919)
06-03-2017 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by RAZD
06-03-2017 5:45 AM


Re:Razz's razz
Scientific sounding jargon doesnt cover up or excuse your lack of straight forward answers.

Inbreeding does not produce new kinds...... no matter how long you breed your dogs together.

Double speak does not hide, this obvious truth.

My belief is correct scientifically and you know it, or should know it, if you studied any biology at all. Your denials show desperation in your lost cause. Inbreeding is not a proof of evolution, but a ploy of evolutionist to con their congregations into their false belief system.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 06-03-2017 5:45 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by RAZD, posted 06-03-2017 6:11 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19217
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 55 of 56 (810921)
06-03-2017 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Davidjay
06-03-2017 5:55 AM


more cognitive dissonance
Message 1 of Cognitive Dissonance and Cultural Beliefs:

quote:
... According to Festinger, we engage in a process he termed "dissonance reduction", which he said could be achieved in one of three ways: lowering the importance of one of the discordant factors, adding consonant elements, or changing one of the dissonant factors. [5] This bias gives the theory its predictive power, shedding light on otherwise puzzling irrational and even destructive behavior. ...

Lowering the importance of conflicting information is usually done in several ways: attacking the messenger (ad hominem), denial, calling the evidence lies or part of a conspiracy theory, for instance.

Your question have been answered, you just reject the answers because your cognitive dissonance is strong. So you resort to attacking the messengers.

And you keep coming back for more, because you want to be right, and you can't understand why everyone else rejects your opinions and falsified beliefs and assertions.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Davidjay, posted 06-03-2017 5:55 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12534
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 56 of 56 (810939)
06-03-2017 8:52 AM


Moderator Request
Please, everyone, keep the focus on the topic and not on the people you're discussing with. This is the only warning I'll give before I begin issuing suspensions.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
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