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Author Topic:   Atheists are more intelligent than Religious people
Tangle
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Posts: 5166
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1 of 60 (809929)
05-22-2017 9:35 AM


53 out of 63 research studies found that belief correlates negatively with intellignce. This study explains why - religion is instinctive, it requires intelligence to overcome it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/...nct-cleverness-a7742766.html


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
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vimesey
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Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 2 of 60 (809935)
05-22-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
05-22-2017 9:35 AM


The article does report that the conclusion is based on the assumption "if religion is an evolved domain", ie part of human instinct.

I'm not convinced it's that simple. I would need an explanation as to how religion can be assessed as an instinct in the same way as other instincts - suckling, for example. Perhaps the paper does this and it is not reported though.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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Faith
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Message 3 of 60 (809936)
05-22-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
05-22-2017 9:35 AM


There have been too many religious people who are also geniuses for that to be true. Jonathan Edwards, Isaac Newton, John Owen are a few.
This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
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Member Rating: 4.1


Message 4 of 60 (809965)
05-22-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
05-22-2017 10:06 AM


There have been too many religious people who are also geniuses for that to be true. Jonathan Edwards, Isaac Newton, John Owen are a few.

You left out Donald Trump.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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RAZD
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Message 5 of 60 (809976)
05-22-2017 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
05-22-2017 9:35 AM


self selection bias
53 out of 63 research studies found that belief correlates negatively with intellignce.

There may be an element of self-selection here, where people that tend to react instinctively are more drawn to religion (and demagogues like DTrumph) while people with more intelligence may be drawn towards education and learning about options for intellectual pursuits.

I think this is a trend these days where science denial is seen by some as a positive opinion, but in the past being educated and intelligent was revered even in church.

This would explain the people mentioned by Faith in Message 3:

There have been too many religious people who are also geniuses for that to be true. Jonathan Edwards, Isaac Newton, John Owen are a few.

Of course they could be outliers in the studies, not enough of them to affect the data.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Tangle
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From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 6 of 60 (810048)
05-23-2017 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
05-22-2017 10:06 AM


Faith writes:

There have been too many religious people who are also geniuses for that to be true. Jonathan Edwards, Isaac Newton, John Owen are a few.

It's an average Faith. No-one is saying that religious people can't also be intelligent or that atheists can't be dim, just that on average religious people aren't as intelligent as atheists.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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caffeine
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(2)
Message 7 of 60 (810114)
05-23-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
05-22-2017 9:35 AM


53 out of 63 research studies found that belief correlates negatively with intellignce. This study explains why - religion is instinctive, it requires intelligence to overcome it.

What did most of those 63 studies all have in common? They were conducted in places where there majority of people were religious.

So we can simply religion from the equation and come to the conclusion that, the more intelligent someone is, the more likely they are to question the prevailing orthodoxy.

The authors of the meta-analysis discuss this rather obvious explanation, and admit that it may play a role. They seem to be resistant to the idea that it explains away the whole phenomenon, on the basis that:

quote:
Atheism might be considered a case of nonconformity in societies where the majority is religious. This is not so, however, if one grows up in largely atheist societies, such as those that exist in Scandinavia

Which is a fair point, but not really relevant, since I can't see any studies in their analysis that looked at Scandinavia (though I could easily have missed them - this is frustratingly not easy to see from the paper without reading each of the 63 studies independently). There is one from Finland, a country which could probably be considered majority atheist; though I can't find access and I am little unclear what info the meta-study is looking at (the paper's abstract says the sample size is 20; but the meta-study says 142).

Either way; it seems to me that there could be something to the idea that religious belief is negatively correlated with intelligence; but if you really wanted to test it you should begin by studying irreligious societies and seeing if the relationship holds. Otherwise you haven't addressed the obvious alternative explanation.


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Tangle
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Posts: 5166
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 8 of 60 (810130)
05-23-2017 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by caffeine
05-23-2017 3:57 PM


Caffeine writes:

So we can simply religion from the equation and come to the conclusion that, the more intelligent someone is, the more likely they are to question the prevailing orthodoxy.

Another conclusion might be that religion makes you too stupid to question the orthodoxy.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by caffeine, posted 05-23-2017 3:57 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Phat
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Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 9 of 60 (810133)
05-24-2017 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
05-22-2017 9:35 AM


Are you suggesting that instinct should always be questioned?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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RAZD
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Posts: 19233
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 10 of 60 (810144)
05-24-2017 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
05-24-2017 12:42 AM


yes

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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jar
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Message 11 of 60 (810145)
05-24-2017 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
05-24-2017 12:42 AM


Yes.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Tangle
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Posts: 5166
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 12 of 60 (810152)
05-24-2017 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
05-24-2017 12:42 AM


Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that instinct should always be questioned?

Can you explain why you seem to think that we wouldn't question instinct? To most of us it's pretty obvious. After all, we have evolved higher level intelligence.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 05-24-2017 12:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
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Member Rating: 3.7


Message 13 of 60 (810164)
05-24-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
05-24-2017 12:42 AM


Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that instinct should always be questioned?

To put a different spin on it, magicians and illusionists have long played with our instincts in order to fool us. The whole point of the scientific method is to question our instinctive reactions to phenomena around us.

The emergence of the modern scientific method came about because of a battle between the Rationalists and the Empiricists. The Rationalists proposed that we could reason our way to a conclusion in an instinctive manner. The Empiricists argued that our instincts were not reliable, and we should therefore verify our conclusions through experimentation and empirical facts. The Empiricists won, and what we got out of it is modern science.


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NoNukes
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Posts: 10071
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 14 of 60 (810166)
05-24-2017 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
05-24-2017 12:42 AM


Are you suggesting that instinct should always be questioned?

We have a name for folks that don't question their instincts. "Psychopaths"


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 15 of 60 (810167)
05-24-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NoNukes
05-24-2017 2:11 PM


NoNukes writes:

We have a name for folks that don't question their instincts. "Psychopaths"

I think that's a bit harsh. Empathy is also a human instinct, and ignoring or lacking empathy is what marks many psychopathic behaviors.


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