Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-21-2017 8:02 AM
314 online now:
Joe T, Pressie, Tangle (3 members, 311 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Post Volume:
Total: 819,207 Year: 23,813/21,208 Month: 1,778/2,468 Week: 287/822 Day: 13/67 Hour: 0/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
67
8
910
...
17Next
Author Topic:   Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge
Taq
Member
Posts: 7140
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 106 of 252 (814557)
07-10-2017 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
07-10-2017 6:21 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Faith writes:

Only a leftist wouldn't know the difference between the delusions of mental patients and the truth of God's word.

The Bible was written by what you call "fallen humans", so it can't be accepted as truth by your own criteria.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:33 PM Taq has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 107 of 252 (814558)
07-10-2017 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
07-10-2017 5:37 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
You mean "Faith's infallible interpretation of the Bible".

But humans are fallible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 5:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:38 PM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 252 (814560)
07-10-2017 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taq
07-10-2017 6:22 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Sorry, the Bible was written by human beings UNDER THE INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. That's what makes it God's word.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 07-10-2017 6:22 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 6:47 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 140 by Taq, posted 07-11-2017 11:50 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 07-11-2017 11:58 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 252 (814561)
07-10-2017 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by JonF
07-10-2017 6:23 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
No, I mean the obvious incontrovertible meaning of the Bible as interpreted by normal ordinary readers -- believers of course -- with the exception of a very few difficult passages. I've listened to thousands of Bible preachers and exegetes by now and the Bible overall is NOT hard to understand and the difficulties of interpretation NOT many for BELIEVERS. Unbelievers come up with all kinds of dumb stuff but they don't count.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 6:23 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 6:48 PM Faith has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 110 of 252 (814568)
07-10-2017 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
07-10-2017 6:33 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Yep, that's your interpretation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 111 of 252 (814569)
07-10-2017 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
07-10-2017 6:38 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
No, I mean the obvious incontrovertible meaning of the Bible as interpreted by normal ordinary readers -- believers of course

I.e. subjective and fallible.

Unbelievers come up with all kinds of dumb stuff but they don't count.

Whether their critiques are true or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 7:03 PM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 252 (814571)
07-10-2017 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by JonF
07-10-2017 6:48 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Sorry, you can't be a believer unless God is guiding you. It's "not by the will of man" that we believe but by the will of God. So our belief is NOT subjective and fallible. And the Church is a corporate body, no one member's interpretation has any particular weight, it's the judgment of the body of believers that determines our understanding.

Sorrrreeee. I know how much you hate to think we know something you don't, but the fact is that we do.

There is no such thing as a valid critique of God's word.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 6:48 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 8:42 PM Faith has responded
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 12:30 AM Faith has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 113 of 252 (814575)
07-10-2017 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Faith
07-10-2017 7:03 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
That would be "your interpretation of what you believe is God's word".That's not an objective fact.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 7:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 9:31 PM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 252 (814577)
07-10-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by JonF
07-10-2017 8:42 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Doesn't work that way. God does it all or it's not valid. You can't believe the Bible is God's word unless He causes you to believe it.

Jesus said: "Without me ye can do nothing."

"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory" (Ephesians 1:11-12).

"The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths" (Psalm 135:6).

"The LORD works out everything to its proper end—even the wicked for a day of disaster" (Proverbs 16:4).

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 8:42 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by JonF, posted 07-11-2017 8:05 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13114
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 115 of 252 (814582)
07-11-2017 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Faith
07-10-2017 7:03 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
quote:

Sorry, you can't be a believer unless God is guiding you. It's "not by the will of man" that we believe but by the will of God

You can't escape your own fallibility just by believing that your beliefs are infallible.

quote:

So our belief is NOT subjective and fallible.

According to a subjective and fallible belief (which is rather obviously wrong)

Since you can't even reliably interpret the Bible - and your belief is a barrier to reliably interpreting the Bible - any claims to special insight are just arrogant delusion.

Sorry, I know you don't like accepting that your treasured beliefs can be wrong - even those that don't come from the Bible. But getting trapped in error is hardly a good way to find the truth.

quote:

There is no such thing as a valid critique of God's word.

There are plenty of valid critiques of your beliefs. Attributing your beliefs to God doesn't change that.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 7:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 2:11 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 252 (814584)
07-11-2017 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
07-11-2017 12:30 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Since you are an unbeliever you have no way to understand what it means that belief is a gift of God who makes the Bible intelligible. Yes we still have to drag around the flesh so alone we can't be sure to interpret the Bible infallibly, but the church body as a whole can be counted on to be guided to the truth by God himself. Sorry you are not in a position to understand. But you are welcome to join us any time by simply asking God to save you. If not, well, so be it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 12:30 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 2:42 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5053
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 117 of 252 (814585)
07-11-2017 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
07-10-2017 6:21 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Faith writes:

Only a leftist wouldn't know the difference between the delusions of mental patients and the truth of God's word.

The point I was making Faith is not that believers are mentally ill - tho' some quite obviously are - but that the human mind is capable of believing almost anything from lucky numbers to changing wine into the blood of a long dead person.

The scientific method was designed to overcome that flaw in people.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 3:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13114
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 118 of 252 (814586)
07-11-2017 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
07-11-2017 2:11 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
quote:

Since you are an unbeliever you have no way to understand what it means that belief is a gift of God who makes the Bible intelligible.

Obvious misreadings can be detected by any literate person. And your misreadings are indeed obvious.

quote:

But you are welcome to join us any time by simply asking God to save you

It doesn't seem to have worked for you. But OK, God, save me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 2:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 2:55 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 252 (814587)
07-11-2017 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
07-11-2017 2:42 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Since you are unable to recognize an obvious misreading and obviously misread it yourself, end of subject.

You have to desire salvation from the heart, ask for it with some persevering sincerity and be willing to accept some things that right now you don't accept (I had to accept lots of things that as a former liberal I thought I could never accept), all sorts of tests of that necessary sincerity, though God does help us with lingering unbelief if we ask for that too with the same sincerity. Although I'd be happy to welcome you into the kingdom, with much joy and even some fanfare, I think your approach needs a little work. Let's say I doubt your sincerity. But I could very happily be wrong.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 2:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 3:13 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 252 (814588)
07-11-2017 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:32 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Yes, I think I got your point, but my point is that the ability to distinguish between mental illness and the truth of God's word would persuade you of the uselessness of the scientific method in this case. God gives the knowledge in this case, there is no need for the methods of fallen intellect.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:32 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 5:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Prev1
...
67
8
910
...
17Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017