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Author Topic:   Home sapiens older than we realized
jar
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Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 16 of 35 (818339)
08-27-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 9:19 AM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
NKJBAS writes:

But man was fairly dumb for a very long time

Man is still fairly dumb and some are dumber than others.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Coyote
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Posts: 5989
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 17 of 35 (818343)
08-27-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 9:19 AM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
But man was fairly dumb for a very long time

You are trying to equate savagery (a cultural condition) with intelligence. They are not the same.

A modern group of people cast away on a remote island would probably end up as savages within a few generations, while remaining as intelligent as other Homo sapiens.

Perhaps you should study some science and leave the religion stuff alone for a while?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18972
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 18 of 35 (818350)
08-27-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 9:19 AM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
Man was probably using tools from the start.

Nope. But that depends on what you call "the start" doesn't it? IF you define the "start of Man" as when they started using tools (or after that) then it becomes self-fulfilling. IF, however you define the "start of Man" as a bipedal primate, then they may have used found objects as tools and later learned to fashion better tools. IF you define the "start of Man" as the first primate the answer would be no.

Chimps and orangutans have been observed making and using tools, and orangutans will even carry small ones in their cheek pouches.

But man was fairly dumb for a very long time

By what measure?

If you took a modern highly educated human and put them in a jungle ecology they would probably die because they wouldn't know how to survive there. (especially without internet access ... ).

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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dwise1
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Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 19 of 35 (818354)
08-27-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 9:19 AM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
But man was fairly dumb for a very long time

"was"? Haven't you seen Trump and the Trumpistas? Sheer idiocy!

You sound like you're invoking one of the more ludicrous claims on AiG about two decades ago that "evolutionists" (a creationist term, so you have already exposed your mission) think that the pyramids of Egypt were built by apemen; ie, that science thought that Homo sapiens sapiens didn't arise until a few thousand years ago, as opposed to the actual figure of 300,000 years ago.

So what constitutes "dumb" with you? An IQ level less than 90? Less than 80? Or just simply dumb as a gorilla?

So just how dumb is a gorilla? Famous gorilla Hanabiko (AKA "Koko", who is also a photographer) had her IQ tested and she scored 80 or 85 (the lower score was attributed to the test's species bias, since Koko chose a tree instead of a house as shelter from the rain).

How does a gorilla's intelligence compare with human intelligence. About 15.8% of the human population has an intelligence lower than 85, so there's a fair amount of overlap there with modern humans.

So just how much dumber do you think ancient man was? The transition from gorilla intelligence levels to human levels is rather small with many modern humans operating at gorilla levels (again, we have Trump and his Trumpistas).

Or are you confusing low intelligence with ignorance and a lack of technology, both of which require time and the efforts of successive generations to develop? Well, that would certainly be a mistake. Have you tried to think this one through or are you just repeating what your teacher had told you?

There's an interesting aspect to lacking technology, kind of analogous to a fist fight between a large man and a small man: the small man needs to fight smarter while the large man can just muscle his way through. Similarly, when you lack our modern technology with its giant cranes that can just move massive structures into place by brute force, then you have to work smarter instead. I saw the same thing in our shop where the male troops were likely as not to just muscle their way through a task (eg, handling a two-man lift all by himself) while the female troops worked much smarter by making full use of their tools and of teamwork.

That AiG article "disproved" their strawman lie argument by pointing out how smart ancient man had to have been to have built such massive structures without modern technology. Well, duh! If anything, since we can now resort more easily to brute force solutions, it is us, modern man with modern tech, who is becoming dumber (again, Trump and the Trumpistas).

Man was probably using tools from the start.

So do chimpanzees. So what's your point?

BTW, every year when school starts up again, we get a rash of students from fundamentalist Christian schools who get credits towards their Internet Christian Troll Certificate by "engaging in discussion" on "evolutionists" forums. Typically, they downplay their YEC affiliation, very likely on the advice of their teachers, but the truth does still keep bleeding through their flimsy cover. Even before that "Question Evolution" curriculum, for decades I would repeatedly encounter creationists who denied up and down and swore to God and three other white men (old Redd Foxx joke; he was very much entitled to make that joke) that they weren't creationists, only to finally drop all pretense and reveal themselves to be rabidly dogmatic YECs.

Of course, that might not apply to you after all. But I have to admit, you do smell very familiar.


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 20 of 35 (818355)
08-27-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
08-27-2017 10:42 AM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
A modern group of people cast away on a remote island would probably end up as savages within a few generations,

We know full well that that is not true. If Gilligan's Island taught us nothing else, it's that all you need to do to build a functioning radio and earphones is to lash together bamboo and coconut shells.

And The Flintstones taught us that cavemen domesticated dinosaurs.

{grin}

Radio commercial writes:


A: {just made an utterly false statement}
B: But that's not true.
A: Yes it is. I heard it on the Internet. Everything you hear on the Internet is true.
B: Where did you hear that?
A: From the Internet.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 21 of 35 (818360)
08-27-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 9:19 AM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
Porkncheese writes:

Man was probably using tools from the start.
But man was fairly dumb for a very long time


You contradict yourself. A guy who can survive in the wilderness using nothing but sticks and rocks seems pretty smart to me.
This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1578
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 22 of 35 (818363)
08-27-2017 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
08-27-2017 2:26 PM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
You contradict yourself. A guy who can survive in the wilderness using nothing but sticks and rocks seems pretty smart to me.

yeah, but could he make Fruit Loops from a pinecone?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 23 of 35 (818365)
08-27-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tanypteryx
08-27-2017 2:57 PM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
Tanypteryx writes:

yeah, but could he make Fruit Loops from a pinecone?


He already had enough fiber in his diet from real fruit.
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5533
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(1)
Message 24 of 35 (818389)
08-27-2017 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 7:12 AM


Re: Humanity... Not so intelligent perhaps
..., nor did they produce any art.

Indigenous Australian art - Wikipedia

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Porkncheese
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 25 of 35 (818393)
08-28-2017 12:36 AM


1 simple point made
As for this post the only point I was trying to make which everyone conveiniently avoided is that mankind was living without written language, buildings or farming for 194,000 years. Make what you want from it.

CREATIONIST KILL HIM im expecting


Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 26 of 35 (818398)
08-28-2017 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Porkncheese
08-28-2017 12:36 AM


Re: 1 simple point made
NewKid writes:

CREATIONIST KILL HIM im expecting

Again, another totally absurd post. No one here would ever even think about killing Creationists, rather the thought would be "Creationist, help him!"

NewKid writes:

As for this post the only point I was trying to make which everyone conveiniently avoided is that mankind was living without written language, buildings or farming for 194,000 years. Make what you want from it.

Actually I imagine humans went without a written language or farming for longer than that. Many humans went without farming and buildings right until very recently. In addition we know that there were societies that went without farming and buildings right along side other societies that had permanent buildings and did farm.

There really isn't very much to make of that.

Edited by jar, : hit submit instead of preview.

Edited by jar, : appalin grammar


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 27 of 35 (818400)
08-28-2017 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Porkncheese
08-28-2017 12:36 AM


Re: 1 simple point made
Porkancheese writes:

As for this post the only point I was trying to make which everyone conveiniently avoided is that mankind was living without written language, buildings or farming for 194,000 years. Make what you want from it.

Human "kind" was living without aeroplanes for more than 199 000 years. Today lots of us are frequently zipping around the globe in less than 24 hours. We hop off the planes on the other side of the world tired, but we survive it. Think about it.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 28 of 35 (818401)
08-28-2017 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Porkncheese
08-28-2017 12:36 AM


Re: 1 simple point made
Oh, and you're wrong anyway. In China there was written language around 12 000 years ago.
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18972
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 29 of 35 (818419)
08-28-2017 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Pressie
08-28-2017 7:37 AM


Re: 1 simple point made
Oh, and you're wrong anyway. In China there was written language around 12 000 years ago.

And we have cave art that eloquently describes living species from 30,000 years ago.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 30 of 35 (818420)
08-28-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Porkncheese
08-28-2017 12:36 AM


Re: 1 simple point made
Porkncheese writes:

CREATIONIST KILL HIM im expecting

There you go again, I'm beginning to think you've got some kind of victim complex. Get over yourself, you're just another confused creationist - we've seen it all before. Relax ask sensible questions rather than the 'you're all wrong' ones you're currently doing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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