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Author Topic:   Does the history of life require "macroevolution"?
Faith
Member
Posts: 25580
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 76 of 126 (815075)
07-15-2017 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by RAZD
07-15-2017 7:00 AM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
then does any mutation that adds to the genetic diversity mean it is evolution outside the kind?

Utterly silly question, incomprehensible really.

First such a mutation is so rare as to be nonexistent.
Second if it does occur it will either be selected and become part of the evolving new species or it will be selected out of that population. Of the Kind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 07-15-2017 7:00 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by RAZD, posted 07-15-2017 9:49 PM Faith has responded
 Message 87 by CRR, posted 07-16-2017 6:58 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 107 by Taq, posted 07-17-2017 3:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
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Posts: 18767
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 77 of 126 (815092)
07-15-2017 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
07-15-2017 5:36 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
Faith,

I didn't ask you.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 07-15-2017 5:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 07-15-2017 11:14 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25580
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 78 of 126 (815097)
07-15-2017 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by RAZD
07-15-2017 9:49 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
Last time I objected to somebody's answering a question I asked someone else I got upbraided by Admin. Personally I'd be very happy if we could decide who posts to us, I'd immediately eliminate at least half a dozen EvCers.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by RAZD, posted 07-15-2017 9:49 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2017 1:57 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12863
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 79 of 126 (815102)
07-16-2017 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
07-15-2017 11:14 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
It's not just that you answered the question, it is that you answered it in a rude and arrogant way that completely discounted whatever CRR might mean.


Utterly silly question, incomprehensible really.

Asking CRR to clarify something he said should not be seen as "utterly silly" and if you find it "incomprehensible" the problem is clearly with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 07-15-2017 11:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 3:24 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25580
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 80 of 126 (815104)
07-16-2017 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by PaulK
07-16-2017 1:57 AM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
What are you talkiing about? You need to provide links when you sling accusations. I have no idea how CRR got into this. I was responding to RAZD and referring to something that occurred some time ago that was not about CRR as far as I kinow.

RAZD's question hit me as completely nonsensical. And you are certainly not the one to correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2017 1:57 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2017 4:03 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12863
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 81 of 126 (815105)
07-16-2017 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
07-16-2017 3:24 AM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
quote:

What are you talkiing about?

I am talking about the exchange in this thread.

RAZD asked CRR a question. You butted in and rudely answered it as if the question was about your ideas.

quote:

You need to provide links when you sling accusations

The links are already provided by the forum software. All you have to do is to follow the discussion back a few messages. Is that too difficult for you ?

In that case

CRR posted Message 74
RAZD responded Message 75
You rudely butted in Message 76

Less than twelve hours after posting that message you've apparently forgotten all about it.

quote:

And you are certainly not the one to correct me if I'm wrong.

If you can't manage to follow the thread of a conversation then someone has to.
Why not me ? And why not simply follow the discussion a few steps back rather than making angry demands ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 3:24 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 4:24 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25580
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 82 of 126 (815106)
07-16-2017 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by PaulK
07-16-2017 4:03 AM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
I "BUTTED IN" ON A QUESTION OF GENERAL INTEREST TO CREATIONISTS AND ANYONE CAN ANSWER ANY QUESTION. CRR CAN ANSWER IT IN HIS OWN WAY. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2017 4:03 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2017 4:40 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 84 by CRR, posted 07-16-2017 6:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12863
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 83 of 126 (815107)
07-16-2017 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
07-16-2017 4:24 AM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
quote:

I "BUTTED IN" ON A QUESTION OF GENERAL INTEREST TO CREATIONISTS AND ANYONE CAN ANSWER ANY QUESTION. CRR CAN ANSWER IT IN HIS OWN WAY. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS

You butted in on a request for CRR to clarify his views. Since you aren't CRR and don't have any special knowledge that would let you answer for him, you can't offer anything more than your personal opinion. You were also extremely rude about it, despite not even bothering to understand the context. Simply pointing out that you don't believe that would be enough.

You should also know by now that trying to cover up your silly mistakes by bullying me into silence doesn't work. it just makes you look even worse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 4:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
CRR
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Posts: 430
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 84 of 126 (815136)
07-16-2017 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
07-16-2017 4:24 AM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
I agree, Faith is welcome to "butt in" if he has a relevant comment.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 4:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by JonF, posted 07-16-2017 6:35 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
JonF
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Posts: 3781
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 85 of 126 (815140)
07-16-2017 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by CRR
07-16-2017 6:23 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
That would be she, not he. In her seventies and consumed by hate and rage. Brown people, immigrants, Roman Catholics, homosexuals, liberals, mainstream anything, and probably others. All of them, in her words, "deserve to be hated".

{Adminnemooseus - Content hidden. Rather rude, but more so, massively off-topic}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide and add note.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by CRR, posted 07-16-2017 6:23 PM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 8:00 PM JonF has responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 430
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 86 of 126 (815141)
07-16-2017 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by RAZD
07-15-2017 7:00 AM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
RAZD writes:

... then does any mutation that adds to the genetic diversity mean it is evolution outside the kind?

As I have argued elsewhere diversity alone does not require "macroevolution". Sickle cell trait has added to diversity of blood types but it is clearly a defect. One copy is detrimental although it can provide a nett benefit in some circumstances, two copies is always detrimental.

Using the analogy of a light switch. A functioning on/off switch is the archetype. Broken always on and broken always off add diversity but not function. An on/off switch that transformed into a dimmer switch would be much more interesting but would still be a lightswitch.

Dog breeding provides a good example of increasing diversity within a kind. Different breeds are developed and maintained by eliminating undesired traits. Allow dogs to freely breed and there would be regression toward the mean to produce a range of mongrels. (btw, I'm a European Mongrel). Mutations can produce new traits that are sometimes valued and selected by breeders but the product is still a dog. ' "Small population size during domestication and strong artificial selection for breed-defining traits has unintentionally increased the numbers of deleterious genetic variants," the researchers write.'

So clearly RAZD's question can be answered in the negative.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 07-15-2017 7:00 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by RAZD, posted 07-17-2017 8:15 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 430
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 87 of 126 (815144)
07-16-2017 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
07-15-2017 5:36 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
Faith writes:

First such a mutation is so rare as to be nonexistent.

As my reply to RAZD shows mutations that increase diversity are not necessarily rare, but many of them are detrimental and even the beneficial ones are usually defects of some sort. What IS rare are the beneficial information adding mutations, Macroevolution, that would be essential for the proposed evolutionary history of life.

Evolution apologists need to show that sufficient macroevolution can take place during the time available to produce the changes required. For this purpose no amount of examples of devolution is sufficient. Come to think of it maybe we should change to Darwin's Theory of Devolution; that would be consistent with the evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 07-15-2017 5:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Coyote, posted 07-16-2017 7:13 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 07-17-2017 4:07 PM CRR has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5899
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 88 of 126 (815145)
07-16-2017 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by CRR
07-16-2017 6:58 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
...during the time available

Please specify how much time you see as being available.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by CRR, posted 07-16-2017 6:58 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25580
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 89 of 126 (815147)
07-16-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by JonF
07-16-2017 6:35 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
That would be she, not he. In her seventies and consumed by hate and rage. Brown people, immigrants, Roman Catholics, homosexuals, liberals, mainstream anything, and probably others. All of them, in her words, "deserve to be hated".

That is way way out of line. The Left has no ability to tell the difference between ideas and people. (Or you're just being true to Saul Alinsky's methods). I hate lots of ideas, I don't hate people. If you are going to quote me, provide the link.

I think you need to be reported for this.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by JonF, posted 07-16-2017 6:35 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 8:08 PM Faith has responded
 Message 93 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-16-2017 8:27 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 94 by JonF, posted 07-16-2017 8:39 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29135
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 90 of 126 (815150)
07-16-2017 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
07-16-2017 8:00 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
Faith writes:

The Left has no ability to tell the difference between ideas and people. I hate lots of ideas, I don't hate people.

Yet the stupid wall is not a barrier to stop ideas, it is meant to stop people.

Roman Catholic ideas never harmed anyone.

Islamic ideas are already spread throughout the world.

The Pope is not an idea but rather a person.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 8:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 8:13 PM jar has responded

  
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