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Author Topic:   Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 381 (812775)
06-20-2017 7:53 AM


I would like to have a thread to explore the specifics of Marxism, including its documents such as The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital as those familiar with them may see fit to explain them. I know Marxism by its cultural effects in our time and through some Marxist writings, mostly Cultural Marxism [Marcuse, Adorno, Horkheimer, the Frankfurt School], but I find it very hard to get through the official writings. They are abstract to the point of putting me to sleep for one thing and they claim to be analyses that to my mind aren't analyses at all, just pernicious attempts to destroy civilization.
The idea, for instance, that all history is about "class struggles" strikes me as an absurd and pernicious reductionism that creates division and conflict between segments of society that don't need to exist. It explains why those of a Leftist persuasion, or even Liberal these days, seem to spend all their time finding something to accuse a conservative of along the lines of being an Oppressor of a victim class defined as the Oppressed. "White privilege" is clearly a Marxism-derived category designed to identify the white race as Oppressor. (It's blatant racism but according to Marxism the term racism can't apply to whites, who are always the racists, never its victims. (However, I'm glad to see that the UK has a law that recognizes racism against whites Message 741) Once you've got an Oppressor class you can work to blame all social ills on it and to so denigrate everything about your chosen class no member of that class can say anything without being slapped down by all the Marxist arsenal of pejorative terms.
Today Islam is defined as an Oppressed Class. Nobody can say anything about the true evil teachings of Islam without being called an "Islamophobe" which is a pejorative that labels the person as morally deficient to such a degree that you can shut down their ability to give an opinion. Freedom of speech is ALWAYS denied by Marxist/Leftist thought. Whatever is outside the Politically Correct category as defined by the Left is the Enemy, to which all kinds of other pejorative labels can be attached.
I consider all this to be sheer evil but it's nevertheless been incorporated into our educational system so that we have generation after generation that has been poisoned by this kind of thinking, coming into positions of social influence that build on creating villains to blame for everything, promoting divisiveness to the point of the extreme political polarity we are seeing today and in general destroying all civilized society.
Marx has been shown to have been an active Satanist too, which yhou can discover in the book Marx and Satan by Richard Wurmbrand, a Rumanian Jewish Christian pastor who was imprisoned under Communism for his Christian beliefs for fourteen years. The observable social effects of Marxism /Communism /Leftism ought to be enough to reveal the evil ideology it is, promoting every kind of oppression of good people, imprisonment and murder, but it's no surprise to me that there's also a connection with the Evil One.
The support of Islam these days has even managed to eclipse another pet Oppressed Class of recent times, women. Islam persecutes women but this is no longer held against Islam, in fact you'll even find defenders of their violent mistreatment of women on the Left these days. Once you've got your victim class it can do no wrong, but its critics can be treated as less than human. Marxism is a pernicious form of ideological categorical thinking that labels p;eople as enemies rather than addressing ideas. Hence the level of vitriol in this current American political scene where violence has become acceptable against the Marxist-designated Oppressor.
I can't get through The Communist Manifesto but here's A SUMMARY:
It argues that class struggles, or the exploitation of one class by another, are the motivating force behind all historical developments. Class relationships are defined by an era's means of production. However, eventually these relationships cease to be compatible with the developing forces of production. At this point, a revolution occurs and a new class emerges as the ruling one. This process represents the "march of history" as driven by larger economic forces.
I think this excuse for an "analysis" is responsible for all the ills I mention above.
I'm not sure how to approach this subject so I'm just throwing it out to see what kind of response it gets. As I said I can't really read the main documents but maybe I can learn more about them in whatever discussion comes about, but I know I do know enough already that my hatred can only get deeper with greater knowledge. I know it's going to be a bumpy ride, but I'm hoping participants will try to be civil and thoughtful and contribute meaningful thoughts.
6/22 ABE: Oh well, the thread has gone to EvC Perdition faster than I expected. Thought I'd highlight a few posts where I've tried to keep the theme up: Message 11 Message 37 Message 50
Message 54 Critical Theory
Message 185 video about Cultural Marxism
Message 207 Another video
Message 220 Bill Lind essay on Political Correctness
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 381 (812782)
06-20-2017 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
06-20-2017 8:34 AM


Re: A great source for the actual information on Marxism
I provided a quote from my link and discussed it, please provide one from yours, or a summary in your own words. Thanks.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 381 (812796)
06-20-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-20-2017 8:40 AM


Re: A great source for the actual information on Marxism
That's just a dodge and against the rules. You need to put some content up on the board.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 381 (812817)
06-20-2017 11:24 AM


The Motivational Effect of Ideology
I remembered this quote from a few days ago when I looked up the gulag. This is Solzhenitsyn on the subject of ideology as what justifies imposing a point of view on others:
Ideology — that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes.... That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis, by race; and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations.... Without evildoers there would have been no Archipelago."
And Islam is an ideology that inspires the murder of nonMuslims as service to Allah. Marxism is the ideology that sent Solzhenitsyn to the gulag archipelago, and justified all the murders of Stalin and Mao.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 381 (812819)
06-20-2017 11:25 AM


The Motivational Effect of Ideology
I remembered this quote from a few days ago when I looked up the gulag. This is Solzhenitsyn on the subject of ideology as what justifies imposing a point of view on others:
Ideology — that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes.... That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis, by race; and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations.... Without evildoers there would have been no Archipelago."
And Islam is an ideology that inspires the murder of nonMuslims as service to Allah. Marxism is the ideology that sent Solzhenitsyn to the gulag archipelago, and justified all the murders of Stalin and Mao.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 381 (812840)
06-20-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Stile
06-20-2017 1:20 PM


So, let's see, I'm not allowed to see things differently than you do, I have to see them your way; you absolutely refuse to learn anything from me but I absolutely have to learn it all from you. Got it. Have a good day.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 381 (812847)
06-20-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Taq
06-20-2017 2:02 PM


I do know a few things it would be worth taking seriously. But I can see this thread is a lost cause.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 381 (812865)
06-20-2017 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by caffeine
06-20-2017 4:09 PM


Re: Chapter One
Thanks for your explanation. I may get more into some of the references on the thread, including yours.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 25 of 381 (812867)
06-20-2017 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
06-20-2017 2:39 PM


I like Chris Rosebrough, I've seen some of his writings. I followed the "Strange Fire Conference" of a few years ago put on by John MacArthur's Grace Community Church in Southern California, where they did the best job I've ever seen of showing the falseness of the Charismatic Movement.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 381 (812894)
06-21-2017 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by LamarkNewAge
06-21-2017 12:02 AM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
Alot of Jews went "neoconservative" after the nationalist movement in the black community reared its hateful head . In the mid-late 60s.
The Black Panthers were Marxist, maybe nationalist too, but certainly Marxist, and New Left (Marxist) leader David Horowitz had been supporting them until they murdered a friend of his, which is what caused him to leave the Left/Marxism and become the prominent neoconservative he is today.
Marxism fell apart (as far as teachings in universities ) and essentially vanished after the 70s.
There are many forms of Marxism and it is certainly alive and well in the universities, never ever "fell apart" at all and still dominates education in the US. A class in "Critical Theory" or something along the lines of "Deconstructing Literature" would be examples of Marxist education. If you are insisting on classical economic Marxism I don't know how much of that is taught, but some for sure: I happen to have had a friend who goes way way back who was a professor at a California university teaching a course in Marxism in the History Department. He taught it for all I know until very recently. Perhaps he's retired now, or maybe he's still teaching, I haven't been in touch for over a decade. But Marxism was alive and well in his professorship at a major university for decades.
Here's a Google page of headlines just to show that a lot of sources agree with this point. Just scan the headlines and a sentence or two. One entry is someone who says three out of five of his professors are Marxist. If necessary I can link to specific articles but the Google page gets across the fact that it's common knowledge that Marxism is big in the universities.
Faith is just looking at the broad "left" and calling it Marxist.
Yes I am looking at the "broad Left" you could say and I know it's Marxist because I know what the terms mean, I recognize the "Class Struggle" theme and the "Victim Politics" and "Identity Politics" in it, all Marxist themes. I see how race is being used in a Marxist way for instance, to identify an enemy class or Oppressor class. These are all Marxist concepts. When you hear about "White privilege" you are hearing a Marxist theme based on the idea of Class Struggle/Victim Politics/Political Correctness (which came out of the Cultural Marxism of the 60s). Marxism is so embedded in today's politics and educated people's minds you may not recognize it, but it's pervasive, inescapable. Few know they are full of Marxist ideas but because they are the nation is being destroyed.
Communism and Islam never were anything but enemies but Faith throws in one cannard after another on that one too.
You just don't know how to recognize the terminology. The whole push for Muslim immigration both here and in Europe where they are going under as a result of it, the reason heads of state are being so welcoming of this murderous ideology, the reason the Mayor of London can say people have to get used to terrorism, is due to Marxist indoctrination/ political correctness that insists Muslims are an underclass to be protected, denying their ideological mission. It's evil and it's destroying Europe.
(I never read his book, but the neoconservative David Horowitz wrote Radical Son and it was about his leaving Marxism. He has been known to take on the anti-gay crap from the right...
Horowitz was a lone courageous voice during the AIDS epidemic, he didn't "take on" any of that from anywhere else, he was an independent observer of how AIDS was killing people and how political correctness was covering it up, and probably one of those instrumental in getting the gay baths of San Francisco shut down.
while exposing alot of racism from the black community. I can't vouch for all he says, but he was a good debater in the 1990s when he had that organization - the name escapes me but it was something about "culture" in the name )
Horowitz was a major voice of the New Left in the sixties, born and raised a "red diaper baby" by Communist parents, who left it all when he found out the Black Panthers he'd been avidly supporting murdered a friend of his who had also been supporting them. That was his turning point and ever since he's been a powerful voice for neoconservatism. His online presence is Front Page Mag and a couple other websites related to it. He discovered the evil in Leftism, Marxism etc. and has been fighting it ever since.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 381 (812905)
06-21-2017 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Genomicus
06-21-2017 5:05 AM


Re: An amazingly ignorant post.
But Dr. Ben Carson didn't mention that there wouldn't have had to be any so-called race riots if institutionalized racism didn't exist, did he?
I don't doubt that racism plays an important role and needs to be recognized, but the emphasis on racism obscures other factors, problems in the black communities themselves, fatherlessness being a big one, children left to themselves, drug culture, petty criminal culture, lack of moral leadership. Maybe those factors are also related to racism in some way, I recognize that it's hard to sort out all the influences, but the Leftist diagnosis of exclusive racist causes can misdirect attempts to solve problems if there are other causes. One cause can be the attitude that rejects education as a "white" thing, so that even reaction against racism can be a factor in problem in black communities. I'm wondering just how helpful the Leftist mindset has been to the black community, and I'm suspecting it may be more of a problem than a solution. Ben Carson had a highly involved mother who insisted that her sons read books. They both went on to have highly skilled high paying professions. The influence of the Left can unfortunately be to preserve a bitter victim mentality that doesn't seek betterment but blaming problems on society, which only makes the problems worse.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 50 of 381 (812958)
06-21-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by caffeine
06-20-2017 4:09 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
Again, thanks for your summary, caffeine.
I've begun listening to the YouTube reading of The Communist Manifesto you linked. (By the way I believe the reader pronounced "Friedrich" correctly, how do you think it should be pronounced?). As always happens with Marxist thought I find myself annoyed with their abstractions and gross generalizations, and of course their main dogma which they build on their abstractions and gross generalizations, the idea that all history can be reduced to class struggles, an idea which has incited more class conflict than ever existed in the supposed history they present.
That anyone ever took such sophomoric reductionism seriously, let alone that it became the powerful ideology guiding so many nations, is mind-boggling and frightening. People who are attracted to Marxism always want to insist that all the murderous regimes that took their inspiration from him didn't follow the doctrine correctly-- they want to believe Marxism is really a utopian salvation of humanity that just wants to help people -- but unfortunately they are wrong. The doctrine itself leads to murder because it can't tolerate opposing views, it breeds paranoia and such a strong but misguided sense of moral righteousness on behalf of the class it designates "oppressed" that it easily justifies murdering opponents who are defined as interfering with their perfect utopia as enemies of humanity. Whatever class of people is demonized by those in power will become targets. This is true of any regime that follows an ideology that identifies good guys versus bad guys. That's how Nazism promoted anti-Semitism, it's how racists justify the oppression of slaves, it's how Islam promotes the subjugation, maiming and murder of women, and the mistreatment of nonMuslims including their murder.
As Solzhenitsyn said, in the quote I posted earlier (Message 11), ideology is the driving influence behind all such inhumane attitudes, always done in the name of goodness and often the name of humanity itself. Marxism itself is such an ideology. It doesn't necessarily have a fixed class of oppressors and oppressed since according to their "analysis" these change through history, leaving it open for each generation to define their own class conflict -- but it promotes the mistreatment in any given period, of the designated oppressor class by the oppressed just by their supposed "analysis" of history. It is a truly diabolical ideology, exploiting people's natural sympathies with the underdog.
So despite the fact that Islam is one of the most murderous evil ideologies ever invented by the Evil One, geared to dominating the world for the demon god Allah, once the idea is concocted that Muslims are the Oppressed class, focusing on the plight of individuals who often don't really know a lot about their own religion, making it a matter of people instead of ideology, then anyone who knows how evil and dangerous the ideology is gets angrily labeled a hateful Islamophobe and Islam gets a free pass to destroy western civilization and kill as many of the "oppressor" class as they can.
I've listened to about four and a half minutes of the reading at You Tube, gving the basic "analysis" of oppressor class against oppressed class and the whole shebang that justifies constant war in society, one group of people against another. I despise it, caffeine, it is a recipe for the destruction of society, and in fact the whole human race as Pastor Richard Wurmbrand points out in his book Marx and Satan.
I know anyone who is attracted to Marxism and thinks it is this lovely recipe for improving the lot of oppressed people has to hate what I'm saying and me for saying it. Just what I'm saying makes me the Oppressor. What a diabolical recipe MAYBE I'll recover enough to want to hear more of the reading, maybe I'll want to see your Chapter Two, but for now as I knew I would, I hate Marxism with such a passion for its undermining of all human values, civility, fairness, all things good, I can't stand any more of it at the moment.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 54 of 381 (812968)
06-21-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Genomicus
06-21-2017 4:39 AM


Critical Theory?
Maybe you'd start to make headway here if you could offer anything substantive, like a refutation of critical theory.
First, the only reason I mentioned it was to identify it as Marxist, a Marxist body of thought that is taught in universities, which I guess you accept. Beyond that, although I'd love to be able to critique it, due to my allergy to all things Marxist I can barely read any of the stuff let alone critique it. Perhaps there are critiques out there already that you could identify to open discussion? Perhaps we could discuss elements of it as you present them from your own understanding?
But just for a start, here's the Google page definition:
critical theory noun: critical theory
a philosophical approach to culture, and especially to literature, that seeks to confront the social, historical, and ideological forces and structures that produce and constrain it. The term is applied particularly to the work of the Frankfurt School.
And from Wikipedia:
Critical theory (German: Kritische Theorie) was first defined by Max Horkheimer of the Frankfurt School of sociology in his 1937 essay Traditional and Critical Theory: Critical theory is a social theory oriented toward critiquing and changing society as a whole, in contrast to traditional theory oriented only to understanding or explaining it.
The Wikipedia article goes on to show other philosophical elements that are involved in it, but just to respond to this general description with more of an objection than a critique: everything in me says Who are you to define what society should be and impose your ideas of changing it on the rest of us? That, by the way, is how I also reacted to Obama's arrogant platform "Hope and change." Hope for whom? Hope for what? Change from what to what? Who are you to define these things, to dictate changes? Since Obama was raised in a Communist family and went out of his way to show his deference to Islam and hatred of America in everything he did, why would any sane person who loves America, who gave it any real thought, want his version of "hope and change?" There's always room for improvement in any social system, but wholesale change? Who do you think you are?
Critical Theory sounds to me like just another version of the usual Marxist program to destroy Western Civilization. I don't know if a critique could be made out of these reactions.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 381 (812980)
06-22-2017 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Genomicus
06-21-2017 8:31 PM


Re: Critical Theory?
I'd love to be able to critique it, due to my allergy to all things Marxist I can barely read any of the stuff let alone critique it.
I mean, isn't that intellectually problematic? Not only do you have an almost immune system reaction to "all things Marxist," but you're not willing to wade through nuanced -- and yes, perhaps a little complex -- writings and works.
Yes it's intellectually problematic. Whatever I learned of Marxism I learned years ago. I really tried, I found it, as I said, irritatingly abstract and reductionistic -- floating a mile above Earth and just about never touching down. I tried because it was considered to be THE worldview everyone should embrace. When I became a Christian in my forties it was like reality and sunshine came into my mental life, it was like being born again in more ways than one, and I gave up the effort to comprehend what seemed like a mind-murdering dogma, not just Marxism but most of modern thought. To my mind the only valid critique, or really the only valid framework for society, is based on Christian principles. Freedom, peace, true justice, concern for neighbor, promotion of the most good for the most people... But of course Marx hated Christianity and so do most of today's Leftists.
Anyway, this thread is an attempt to absorb more of the ideas I'd given up. I did listen to those four minutes of The Communist Manifesto and may eventually listen to more; and I'm glad you have chosen to spell out your Marxist thinking in more detail.
More later.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 381 (812985)
06-22-2017 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Genomicus
06-22-2017 2:26 AM


Re: Critical Theory?
No sane society ignores illegality, but your Marxist theory wants to do just that, and you turn anyone who objects into an oppressor according to your Marxist formula, just one of the many ways Marxism tears down everything sane, orderly and right. "Undocumented brown Latinos" is just a Marxist euphemism for people who are violating the law.

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