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Author Topic:   The economy needs a 3% GDP growth to function well
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 38 (820985)
09-29-2017 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by LamarkNewAge
09-27-2017 6:22 PM


Correction. Fiscal Yeay 2018 is October 1 2017 to Sept 30 2018
That is the new fiscal year coming up and I described it as FY 2017 by mistake. It is FY 2018 that will see the Federal Reserve begin to reduce its $4.5 trillion balance sheet. The reductions will start at $10 billion per month (starting in December I think) and the amount liquidated will gradually rise to $50 a month in 12 months.

October 1 2018 till September 30 2019 will be FY 2019 (not FY 2018 as I stated above) and that will be the fiscal year where apparently $600 billion will be liquidated.

In addition to huge budget deficits of at least $700 billion, in these 2 years, there will be all this QE liquidation bond selling that will require investors.

Interest rates already have jumped quite a lot just this week alone. I didn't see the yield numbers for yesterday or today (have yet to read my Wall Street Journal for September 29 plus I don't know what happened today), but September 27 say a major increase in the treasury yield. (from like 2.0% up to about 2.3% in just 1 day)


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RAZD
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Posts: 19332
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 38 (821005)
09-30-2017 10:05 AM


Wealth -- what is it?
The problem with the current economic system is that it only measures "wealth" in monetary units:

To be "wealthy" in this system you must accumulate a lot of money and things valued in monetary units.

In my thinking this is a false paradigm. This is what causes Trump, the Koch brothers, Walmart and the republican party.

A person can be wealthy, in my opinion, if they are surrounded by a happy and supportive family (Asgara and Buz come to mind), and a person can have a wealth of knowledge. These things do not have a strict monetary value and so they are not included in the "economy" valuation.

What is wealth?

Bing dictionary brings up:

quote:
wealth
[welTH]
NOUN

an abundance of valuable possessions or money:
"he used his wealth to bribe officials"
synonyms: affluence · prosperity · riches · means · substance · fortune · money · cash · lucre · capital · treasure · finance · assets · possessions · resources · funds · property · [more]

  • the state of being rich; material prosperity:
    "some people buy boats and cars to display their wealth"
  • plentiful supplies of a particular resource:
    "the country's mineral wealth"
  • a plentiful supply of a particular desirable thing:
    "the tables and maps contain a wealth of information"
    synonyms: abundance · profusion · mine · store · treasury · bounty · bonanza · cornucopia · myriad · lot · load · heap · mass · mountain · stack · ton · plenitude
  • archaic
    well-being; prosperity.

It is only when you get to archaic that you get to well-being ...

So to my thinking a country is wealthy that is concerned with and encourages the well-being of it's citizens, that has a wealth of knowledge to handle problems (like global climate change and renewable power generation), where the health and happiness of the citizens is a paramount concern.

That is not the current USofA ...

quote:
Gross National Happiness

Gross National Happiness (also known by the acronym : GNH) is a developing philosophy as well as an "index" which is used to measure the collective happiness in any specific nation.

The concept was first mentioned in the Constitution of Bhutan, which was enacted on 18 July, 2008.[1]

However, the term itself, 'Gross National Happiness', was previously coined in 1979 during an interview at Bombay airport when the then king of Bhutan, Jigme Singye Wangchuck, said "We do not believe in Gross National Product. Gross National Happiness is more important."[2]

GNH Implementation

The implementation of a GNH policy can be challenging as it requires considerable institutional support. In Bhutan, the implementation – or mainstreaming – of GNH into political institutions has been a gradual process for several decades but recently accelerated with the introduction of the GNH Index and the GNH Screening Tool.

As part of a lengthy and ongoing process of integrating the GNH philosophy into public policy, the GNH Index was developed by the Centre for Bhutan Studies (CBS) to help measure the progress of Bhutanese society. In 2010, the first nationwide GNH survey was conducted with a sample size of 8,510 Bhutanese aged 15 and above. The second nationwide survey was conducted in 2015 and had a sample size of 8,871. After all three rounds of surveys, follow-up interviews and additional data gathering was conducted in order to review and refine the survey. The GNH survey covers all twenty districts (Dzonkhag) and results are reported for varying demographic factors such as gender, age, abode, and occupation. The survey therefore provides a rich dataset to compare the happiness between different groups of citizens, and how this has changed over time.[12]


quote:
Lifestyle > Happiness net: Countries Compared

DEFINITION: This statistic is compiled from responses to the survey question: "Taking all things together, would you say you are: very happy, quite happy, not very happy, or not at all happy?". The "Happiness (net)" statistic was obtained via the following formula: the percentage of people who rated themselves as either "quite happy" or "very happy" minus the percentage of people who rated themselves as either "not very happy" or "not at all happy".

1Iceland 94%2005
2Sweden 91%2005
2Denmark 91%2005
2Netherlands 91%2005
5Australia 90%2005
6Ireland 89%2005
6Switzerland 89%2005
8Norway 88%2005
9Venezuela 87%2005
9United Kingdom 87%2005
11Belgium 86%2005
12Philippines 85%2005
13United States 84%2005
13France 84%2005
15Finland 83%2005
16Austria 81%2005
17Canada 75%2005
18Poland 74%2005
19Japan 72%2005
20Turkey 71%2005
21Bangladesh 70%2005
22Spain 68%2005
23Italy 64%2005
24Uruguay 60%2005
25Brazil 59%2005
25Argentina 59%2005
27Azerbaijan 56%2005
28Chile 52%2005
29China 49%2005
30Portugal 48%2005
30Mexico 48%2005
32Dominican Republic 47%2005
33Nigeria 46%2005
33Hungary 46%2005
35Ghana 43%2005
36India 40%2005
37Slovenia 32%2005
38Croatia 31%2005
39Georgia 27%2005
39Latvia 27%2005
41Estonia 26%2005
42Romania 23%2005
43Armenia 14%2005
44Lithuania 10%2005
45Slovakia 4%2005
46Russia 2%2005
47Ukraine -4%2005
48Belarus -8%2005
49Moldova -12%2005
50Bulgaria -24%2005
Group of 7 countries (G7) average 77.67%2005
NATO countries average 54.36%2005

Citation:
"Countries Compared by Lifestyle > Happiness net. International Statistics at NationMaster.com", World Values Survey 2005. Aggregates compiled by NationMaster. Retrieved from http://www.nationmaster.com/...stats/Lifestyle/Happiness-net


Now I imagine a few nations have changed position since 2005 (Venezuela for instance), but I can't help notice that countries with high degrees of social democratic policies -- such as universal health care and guaranteed minimum income -- rank at the top, and that the US ranks 12th (in 2005).

So I would contend that GNH is a better measure of "wealth" than GNP ... particularly as it is difficult to have too much happiness.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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Taq
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Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 18 of 38 (821088)
10-02-2017 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by LamarkNewAge
09-29-2017 6:01 PM


Re: A Universal Basic Income.
LamarkNewAge writes:

The average income in the United States appears to be going toward $59,000 per person for 2017.

The statistical Naze in me can't help but point out that this is the median income which is different from the average or mean income.

The world average should be over $11,000 for 2017 but that depends on how much worse the dollar gets. (Purchasing power in the world will average over $17,000 per person in 2017).

A truly universal (that is worldwide) income right of $250 per month (PPP or purchasing power parity) might be in order if one wants faster economic growth and the (near)end of abject poverty.

I'm not an economic expert, but it seems like a bad idea to dump a lot of cash into an economy since it could create unmanageable inflation/deflation. It also reminds me of a story my grandfather used to tell about his time in the US Army during WW II. There were quite a few guys who liked to gamble and play poker. Within a few days of getting their paychecks a lot of those guys would be broke, but there were a few card sharks that would be flush with money, and it was usually the same guys each month. Just flooding the economy with money seems like a bad idea, but it might work if it is balanced by building infrastructure that would produce good paying jobs in the long term. Otherwise, all of that money moves into the pockets of barons or an economic oligarchy (think Russia) and stays there.

But I could be completely wrong. Again, I'm not an expert in economics.


This message is a reply to:
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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 38 (821388)
10-06-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taq
10-02-2017 11:22 AM


Re: A Universal Basic Income.
quote:

The statistical Naze in me can't help but point out that this is the median income which is different from the average or mean income.

I can't make to much fun of you because I managed to forget what you seem to have forgotten. I USED to know (the very basic fact) that the median income was a much lower dollar amount than the average income, but it seemed to slip my mind (remember the Brexit thread and PaulK challenging my knowledge on that issue?)

The median is about $18,000 per capita per year while the average is going to be about $59,000 per capita per year.

The median household income will be around $38,000 or something.

For some groups (especially Americans of Indian descent), the median household income is close to the average individual income amount. The Indian household median income situation was what got me confused (in the Brexit thread)between average and median (though I knew exactly what median meant, as you surely do, but I got the dollar amount all confused, and I used to know better LONG ago.

PaulK raised the issue of "well being" being better reflected by the median income level, and I stupidly said that the median was about the same as the average, and he called me on it. How I forgot that, I have no idea.

quote:

I'm not an economic expert, but it seems like a bad idea to dump a lot of cash into an economy since it could create unmanageable inflation/deflation. It also reminds me of a story my grandfather used to tell about his time in the US Army during WW II. There were quite a few guys who liked to gamble and play poker. Within a few days of getting their paychecks a lot of those guys would be broke, but there were a few card sharks that would be flush with money, and it was usually the same guys each month. Just flooding the economy with money seems like a bad idea, but it might work if it is balanced by building infrastructure that would produce good paying jobs in the long term. Otherwise, all of that money moves into the pockets of barons or an economic oligarchy (think Russia) and stays there.

But I could be completely wrong. Again, I'm not an expert in economics.


You seem to be responding to the QE temporary creation of money (to be removed later?)

It made mortgages cheaper and lower interest rates there enabled people to get good monthly payments.

But the wealthy were the biggest winners there.

Lower income folks are hurt by lower mortgage rates because it shoots up housing prices.

That was the mortgage backed security part of the $4.5 trillion in debt purchases.

As for the federal treasury bond purchasing part...

The national debt hasn't been too expensive to finance that's to the QE buying treasury bonds and keeping rates down.

But a massive ton of the debt purchasing was fairly short term maturity bonds, and they will need to be replaced my (much higher yielding) bonds sold to investors in time.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 38 (821390)
10-06-2017 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
09-29-2017 5:33 PM


On the Indian issue.
quote:

What I have noticed is that humans need a job. When we don't have jobs and just sit around the results are pretty ugly. To use one example, there are indigenous tribes in Alaska that receive rather large incomes from mineral rights (i.e. oil money). Each person gets as much as $60k a year for nothing more than existing. What do these communities look like? Alcohol and drug abuse are rampant. Quality of life is piss poor. Education for kids is atrocious.

It seems to me that we humans derive our sense of worth from working. When that is taken away we tend towards destructive behaviors. So how do we supply people with work in a society without money and without a need for people making stuff?


American Indians are interesting.

There is a lot of interest in (generally fundamentalist) Christianity despite the well known past imposition. Indians are interested in a lot of issues and frankly, a societal resurgence (as if it ever surged in the past) in the liberal arts might attract lots of Indians.

Indians in the United States might not be the best examples if one expects to see what typical results will be.

I don't know.

I know that a number of working Indians do have issues with liquor, but most are deeply offended if "their people" are singled out as having worse vices with addiction than whites and blacks. They are very vocal on that note. (dunk Indians often shout out against whites and "their drugs"). Drunk and sober Indians alike dismiss their being singled out as any different.


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 Message 14 by Taq, posted 09-29-2017 5:33 PM Taq has responded

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Taq
Member
Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 21 of 38 (821399)
10-06-2017 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by LamarkNewAge
10-06-2017 4:07 PM


Re: On the Indian issue.
LamarkNewAge writes:

Indians in the United States might not be the best examples if one expects to see what typical results will be.

I know where you are coming from, but I don't think they are atypical, either. There is a strong correlation between unemployment and chronic drug use. One could argue which leads to which, but the correlation is there. From what I have seen, this is true across all races. If you look at the current opioid crisis it is really bad in W. Virginia where unemployment is high (i.e. coal miners out of work).

I know that a number of working Indians do have issues with liquor, but most are deeply offended if "their people" are singled out as having worse vices with addiction than whites and blacks. They are very vocal on that note. (dunk Indians often shout out against whites and "their drugs"). Drunk and sober Indians alike dismiss their being singled out as any different.

There is a genetic basis for alcohol tolerance and addiction (e.g. ADH isoforms), but those are tangential to the issues I am referring to.


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 38 (825667)
12-17-2017 12:46 AM


Since 2008, the distribution of income wealth has become more even?
An AP story was just printed today in my local paper

Here is a link from another paper

https://www.abqjournal.com/...er-unless-policies-change.html

quote:

Report: Rich will get still richer unless policies change

By Elaine Kurtenbach and Christopher Rugaber / Associated Press

Published: Friday, December 15th, 2017 at 1:24pm

TOKYO — Global income inequality has worsened over the past four decades, a report finds, with the wealthiest 1 percent of the world’s population capturing twice as much income growth as the bottom half.

....

The World Inequality Report 2018 is based on an interactive collection of data compiled by an international team of researchers that includes renowned economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez. Their previous research drew attention to widening inequality in the United States by highlighting the disproportionate income gains enjoyed by the richest 1 percent since 1980.

The new report argues that countries can reduce inequality through more progressive taxation and by subsidizing education. It points out that the United States and Western Europe had similar levels of inequality in 1980, with the top 1 percent holding about 10 percent of income. But by 2016, the top 1 percent in Europe held a 12 percent income share, compared with 20 percent in the U.S.

....

The World Inequality Report shows that income gaps soared after 1980, though they leveled off after 2008 after the financial crisis. The richest 1 percent of the world’s population saw its share of global income slip from about 22 percent in 2008 to just above 20 percent in 2016. At the same time, the share of global income going to the bottom 50 percent rose slightly in the same period, to just under 10 percent, thanks to gains in populous and fast-growing China and India.

The share of income earned by the bottom 50 percent of Americans sank from more than 20 percent in 1980 to 13 percent in 2016, it said.


A fall from 22% down to 20% seems like a roughly 10% income share drop for the top 1%.

I did not see the exact numbers for the bottom 50% but it looks like an almost 10% income share is an improvement from 2008 to 2016 at least.

I don't know what the numbers were when looked at from a broader perspective (from 1980 to 2008, and even for 2008 I don't know the numbers).

There is an anti free trade bias from the study authors it seems (and the AP article does seem to uncritically assert that globalization has somehow hurt the bottom 50% of Americans). I would call that erroneous.

Well, what to make of this?


    
Dr Jack
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Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 23 of 38 (825671)
12-17-2017 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by frako
06-25-2017 12:21 PM


Unlimited growth on a limited planet is impossible.

This is simply untrue. Growth needn't be driven by consuming more resources; it is also driven by innovation and creativity. In fact, most growth over the last seventy years (at least) has been produced not by consumption of more resources but by rapid improvements in technology and the creation of new ideas.

And, even if it were true, it is only relevant if those limits are hit within a timescale relevant to current decision makers. A limit to growth that applies a thousand years in the future is of no consequence.

An economy without growth isn't stable; it is stagnant.

Edited by Dr Jack, : Forgot a point.


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RAZD
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Posts: 19332
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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(1)
Message 24 of 38 (825698)
12-17-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
09-30-2017 10:05 AM


Re: Wealth -- what is it?
Where does happiness fit into your life? your concept of wealth?

It is crucial to well-being, health and personal satisfaction. My previous post on this listed information from 2005.

There is updated information since my last post:

quote:
World Happiness Report 2017

The first World Happiness Report was published in April, 2012, in support of the UN High Level Meeting on happiness and well-being. Since then the world has come a long way. Increasingly, happiness is considered to be the proper measure of social progress and the goal of public policy. In June 2016 the OECD committed itself “to redefine the growth narrative to put people’s well-being at the center of governments’ efforts”. In February 2017, the United Arab Emirates held a full-day World Happiness meeting, as part of the World Government Summit. Now on World Happiness Day, March 20th, we launch the World Happiness Report 2017, once again back at the United Nations, again published by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network, and now supported by a generous three-year grant from the Ernesto Illy Foundation. Some highlights are as follows.

Norway tops the global happiness rankings for 2017

Norway has jumped from 4th place in 2016 to 1st place this year, followed by Denmark, Iceland and Switzerland in a tightly packed bunch. All of the top four countries rank highly on all the main factors found to support happiness: caring, freedom, generosity, honesty, health, income and good governance. Their averages are so close that small changes can re-order the rankings from year to year. ...

All of the other countries in the top ten also have high values in all six of the key variables used to explain happiness differences among countries and through time – income, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on in times of trouble, generosity, freedom and trust, with the latter measured by the absence of corruption in business and government. Here too there has been some shuffling of ranks among closely grouped countries, with this year’s rankings placing Finland in 5thplace, followed by the Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia and Sweden tied for the 9th position, having the same 2014-2016 score to three decimals.

However 80% of the variance of happiness across the world occurs within countries. In richer countries the within-country differences are not mainly explained by income inequality, but by differences in mental health, physical health and personal relationships: the biggest single source of misery is mental illness (see Chapter 5). Income differences matter more in poorer countries, but even their mental illness is a major source of misery.

Work is also a major factor affecting happiness (see Chapter 6). Unemployment causes a major fall in happiness, and even for those in work the quality of work can cause major variations in happiness.

Happiness has fallen in America

The USA is a story of reduced happiness. In 2007 the USA ranked 3rd among the OECD countries; in 2016 it came 19th. The reasons are declining social support and increased corruption (see Chapter 7) and it is these same factors that explain why the Nordic countries do so much better.

Figure 2.2: Ranking of Happiness 2014-2016 (Part 1)

  1. Norway (7.537)
  2. Denmark (7.522)
  3. Iceland (7.504)
  4. Switzerland (7.494)
  5. Finland (7.469)
  6. Netherlands (7.377)
  7. Canada (7.316)
  8. New Zealand (7.316)
  9. Australia (7.284)
  10. Sweden (7.284)
  11. Israel (7.213)
  12. Costa Rica (7.079)
  13. Austria (7.006)
  14. United States (6.993)
  15. Ireland (6.977)
  16. Germany (6.951)
  17. Belgium (6.891)
  18. Luxemburg (6.863)
  19. United Kingdom (6.714)
  20. Chile (6.652)
  21. United Arab Emerites (6.648)
  22. Brazil (6.635)
  23. Czech Republic (6.609)
  24. Argentina (6.599)
  25. Mexico (6.578)
  26. Singapore (6.572)
  27. Malta (6.527)
  28. Uruguay (6.454)
  29. Guatamala (6.454)
  30. France (6.442)
  31. Thailand (6.424)
  32. Taiwan Province of China (6.422)
  33. Spain (6.403)
  34. Qatar (6.375)
  35. Columbia (6.357)
  36. Saudi Arabia (6.344)
  37. Thailand and Tobago (6.168)
  38. Kuwait (6.105)
  39. Slovakia (6.098)

  40. Poland (5.973)

  41. Russia (5.963)

  42. Japan (5.920)

  43. Venezuela (5.250)

  44. Greece (5.227)

  45. Portugal (5.195)

So Venezuela did fall. I also picked countries where austerity was imposed (Spain, Greece, Portugal).

Countries with high degrees of social democratic policies -- such as universal health care and guaranteed minimum income -- still rank at the top.

The US fell some, the first country below 7, but I don't think we have the full impact of the Trump Kleptocracy effects. Especially when the new tax scam goes into effect.

It would be interesting to see countries graphed since the 2012 report.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19332
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 25 of 38 (825769)
12-17-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
12-17-2017 12:16 PM


Re: Wealth -- what is it?
``Here's the results for 2016:

quote:
World Happiness Report 2016 Update

Figure 2.2: Ranking of Happiness 2013-2015 (Part 1)

  1. Denmark (7.526)
  2. Switzerland (7.509)
  3. Iceland (7.501)
  4. Norway (7.498)
  5. Finland (7.413)
  6. Canada (7.404)
  7. Netherlands (7.339)
  8. New Zealand (7.334)
  9. Australia (7.313)
  10. Sweden (7.291)
  11. Israel (7.267)
  12. Austria (7.119)
  13. United States (7.104)
  14. Costa Rica (7.087)
  15. Puerto Rico (7.039)
  16. Germany (6.994)
  17. Brazil (6.952)
  18. Belgium (6.929)
  19. Ireland (6.907)
  20. Luxembourg (6.871)
  21. Mexico (6.778)
  22. Singapore (6.739)
  23. United Kingdom (6.725)
  24. Chile (6.705)
  25. Panama (6.701)
  26. Argentina (6.650)
  27. Czech Republic (6.596)
  28. United Arab Emirates (6.573)
  29. Uruguay (6.545)
  30. Malta (6.488)
  31. Colombia (6.481)
  32. France (6.478)
  33. Thailand (6.474)
  34. Saudi Arabia (6.379)
  35. Taiwan (6.379)
  36. Qatar (6.375)
  37. Spain (6.361)
  38. Algeria (6.355)
  39. Guatemala (6.324)
  40. Suriname (6.269)
  41. Kuwait (6.239)
  42. Bahrain (6.218)
  43. Trinidad and Tobago (6.168)
  44. Venezuela (6.084)
  45. Slovakia (6.078)
  46. El Salvador (6.068)
  47. Malaysia (6.005)
  48. Nicaragua (5.992)
  49. Uzbekistan (5.987)
  50. Italy (5.977)
  51. Ecuador (5.976)
  52. Belize (5.956)
  53. Japan (5.921)

  54. Russia (5.856)
  55. Poland (5.835)

  56. Portugal (5.123)

  57. Greece (5.033)

Costa Rica moved up above US in placement, but 2016 report scored lower (was 7.087, 7.079 in 2017 report)

US went from 7.104 in 2016 report to 6.993 in 2017 report.

Russia, Poland, Greece, Venezuela and Portugal all moved up from 2016 report to 2017 report.

Puerto Rico dropped from 15th place (7.039 in 2016 report) to not being listed in the 2017.

Make what you want of the numbers.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 38 (825785)
12-17-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
12-17-2017 3:52 PM


Re: Wealth -- what is it? (what about health or spiritual issues?)
The Netherlands has the world's tallest people, so perhaps they have the best diet?

Or is spiritual health the best measure?

What about those spiritual issues?

Could the unreal explosion of vegetarians/vegans in Israel in JUST the past decade (or broadly speaking ALMOST decade and a half) be signs of spiritual growth and thus be a sign of a (growing) successful society?

What about India?

On related moral concerns, consider the following:

Moral poverty in the United States (especially the unhealthy south) might be an issue to consider.

The black community of Alabama saw the fight against Roy Moore (and his sphere of - ironically - faux "moral" supporters) as a spiritual battle against Satan himself (and I should point out that his chasing of younger girls isn't what I am concerned about here, and I doubt that was the main concern from black voters though I assume they cared somewhat about his sex life while I don't give a rat's rear end).

Moral poverty must be considered, to some extent, a drag on lifespans and economic health.

I think that moral and spiritual issues can be seen as a sign (or signs) of society's growth and thus could be a harbinger for the future (if not the present). We should be able to agree that health indicators are important.

But perhaps all of the above issues are symptoms of the respective societies success? But are we looking at results that represent the respective societies as a whole or is a lot of top-loaded (like the top 1% or top 10% or top 20% or top 50%) success skewering the overall numbers?

Then we have to consider the fact that there aren't going to be the same definitions of "happy", "moral", "spiritual", and (perhaps even) "healthy".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2017 3:52 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-18-2017 12:40 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 38 (825795)
12-18-2017 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by LamarkNewAge
12-17-2017 10:04 PM


Possible correction on Roy Moore issue.
I assumed the only thing he did was date teenage girls in a manner of common consent (one was 14 I think).

I forgot that there were other accusations (including him touching people against their will and issue like that). I was just reading another thread, and a post.

I didn't follow the discussion of his sexual accusation issues closely.

So, just scratch out what I said above. I am not interested in the issue, but perhaps I went too far when I said I didn't give a rats behind. (and I actually care a lot about rats anyway, and think mammal eating snakes should be illegal pets plus I oppose the legality of inhumane rodent traps)

(edit: I just understated what I think should be illegal when it comes to killing animals but moving on)

I only mentioned the issue because I was trying to point out that his sexual issues weren't the "moral" issue in black voter's minds.

I was trying to make a point about morality being subjective and I was thinking of racism of the right being "evil" to some while abortion and homosexuality seem evil to others (like Moore supporters).

Southerners present themselves as happy and moral even though they are physically unhealthy.

My point was that people can skew happiness indicators.

Perhaps my whole point was weak from the get go.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19332
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 28 of 38 (825801)
12-18-2017 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by LamarkNewAge
12-17-2017 10:04 PM


Re: Wealth -- what is it? (what about health or spiritual issues?)
What about India?

It's listed in the reports. I haven't looked to evaluate their positions.

The black community of Alabama saw the fight against Roy Moore ...

Interestingly the "black belt" that began as good soil for cotton and became a depressed area of predominantly black people after the Civil War, continuing to today, voted overwhelming for Doug Jones, adding another overlay on the map.

Moral poverty must be considered, to some extent, a drag on lifespans and economic health.

This was part of the evaluation of the UN investigation of poverty in America.

See American Poverty -- UN envoy investigates

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : lnk


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-17-2017 10:04 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 12-18-2017 9:12 AM RAZD has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29828
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 29 of 38 (825804)
12-18-2017 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by RAZD
12-18-2017 8:27 AM


The Desirable direction.
With the ever increasing advantages offered by technology is there any good reason the US should not move towards a Progressive Manor Estate society? By accumulating the wealth in the hands of the Elite, those who have demonstrated that they are the most suited to rule, we could achieve a functional stable society for all where Trickle Down will actually work.

With the adoption of online ordering and direct just in time delivery coupled with the Smart Home that can track everything including whether or not someone is in a room and if so, adjust light to the appropriate level for the current activities in that one room; track available foods to make sure there is sufficient quantity and diet appropriate foods for each resident at a given location the needs of the peoples could be met in an efficient and orderly manner and reduce waste to near zero. Ubiquitous computing would even be able to adjust meals to suit the individual needs of each unit and also monitor to make sure that the proper unit consumes the foods.

One advantage to consolidated wealth is of course that the wealthy require more services than common units so there will be a higher demand for services like Footman or Best Boy, Waiter and Server and Butler; Ladies Maid and Gardner and Fancy Women.

Just look at the variety of significant jobs that were available in last great Progressive Manor Estate society.

As we consolidate all retail into a few regional distribution points we would open up most of the current real estate to re-purpose as Unit Housing.

Allowing the Elite to use modern computing technology as well as direct just in time delivery to appropriately distribute all resources needed will keep the units functioning at an optimal level while reducing waste as well as improving overall US environmental conditions. No unit would need to drive an individual vehicle to go shopping or to work rather the same system used for just in time delivery could also be used for just in time pickup and delivery for those units needing transportation over a greater distance then by walking alone.

It seems to me that by adopting a Progressive Manor Estate society as our goal the US could create an orderly stable society where ever unit knows it's place and is valued and replace outmoded inefficient systems such as we use today with ones suited for the 21st Century and flexible enough to change rapidly based on actual hard real time evidence.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2017 8:27 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 9:29 AM jar has responded
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2017 9:39 AM jar has responded
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10264
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 30 of 38 (825807)
12-18-2017 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
12-18-2017 9:12 AM


Re: The Desirable direction.
Wouldnt this recreate the whole idea of indentured servants?

Why should free people know their place?

If reality includes ending the war against the wealthy and bowing and scraping, I fear the anger that would arise.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 12-18-2017 9:12 AM jar has responded

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