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Author Topic:   A Test Of Science And Evolution Knowledge
caffeine
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Posts: 1341
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 46 of 83 (814122)
07-04-2017 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Modulous
07-03-2017 3:29 PM



Anyway, you'll find the lizard fossils in the Carboniferous, before the Permian and Triassic - see Hylonomus. It came after Westlothiana, which seems to have a mix of amphibious and reptillian/amniote features. See also: Casineria - also showing a mix of characteristics - exhibiting the characteristics of, dare I say, a 'transition' between the two groups.

These are not obscure fossils, so one wonders - how did you miss them when you wrote what you wrote? I suggest you are simply not motivated to find them as they contradict or complicate your thesis.

In Mike's defence, those aren't lizards. Not every small scaly quadruped is a lizard. Although given that's he's been happy to assign fossils of other extinct groups to modern groups they superficially resemble maybe I shouldn't be defending on this.

On the topic, it's not at all clear that understanding of evolution is correlated with acceptance of it. I am not denying that most creationists have little understanding of the topic; but rather noting that most evolutionists have little understanding either (with the clarification that 'evolutionist' means someone who would answer yes when you ask them if they think people evolved from earlier animals, rather than evolutionary biologists).

In the US (I haven't seen similar studies elsewhere), religious belief and political affiliation correlate with belief in evolution much more strongly than education or knowledge.


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9906
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 47 of 83 (814129)
07-04-2017 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by dwise1
07-04-2017 12:45 AM


When religions insist on conflicting with reality (such as YEC does), then they also conflict with evolution.

That's true. In my opinion, you overthought this question. Some pretty prominent denominations take the position that if one word of the Bible is wrong, then Jesus did not exist and their religion would be a bunch of hooey.

You, of course, take the position that those folks are simply mistaken and could change. But you did not write the test.

OK, so you could answer contrary to what you think. Which makes you and your situation even worse, because you know better and yet you persist in misconstruing evolution.

No. It just means that he disagrees despite knowing what scientist think. There is no reason why a creationist could not get 100% on the test.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9906
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 48 of 83 (814134)
07-04-2017 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
07-04-2017 12:35 AM


Re: Evidence for kinds
I begin with Scriptural considerations, then move to additive and subtractive evidences, and conclude with an interpretation of my results.

I see the quote and I see the paragraphs in the reference devoted to the Biblical considerations. What I don't come up with after that review is very many scriptural considerations other than the disqualification of humans as being grouped with any other animals. Admittedly that exception is a pretty strong condemnation given the evidence that we did evolve.

From the article.

quote:
I found that the Bible refers to members of the grass family frequently. I will focus my discussion on two types of passages: the creation of grasses and early post-Flood references.

...

Because modern plant baramins contain both woody and herbaceous members (e.g. Flaveriinae14 ), it is best to refrain from asserting one interpretation over another. I conclude that the creation account gives very little information about the baraminic limits of the grasses with respect to other plants.


So yeah, the author does admonish us to consider the Bible as the priority. But the reality is that there just isn't a possibility to gain much insight from doing so. According to Creationists, humans were specially created, but there just isn't much Biblical guidance after that.

Note also that the the only "subtractive evidence" is morphological difference which is hardly strong evidence of a discontinuity in itself. It is a result entirely consistent with evolution.

Your note would appear to support my argument and not yours. I'll add that there is no reason creationist could not add something like "ability to produce viable offspring" to the criteria. In discussions, they generally do that.

The objection that the same could be said of species or the other taxonomic groupings used by mainstream science entirely misses the point.

I agree that it is not the most important issue to be discussed, but I then I am not making an argument against evolution.

The absence of clear boundaries is evidence for evolution, and against the existence of separate "kinds" no matter what system is employed

Yes. That is true of course. But not relevant to my comment. I am not making an argument against evolution. I am instead pointing out what I think is a strained, yet often repeated argument in favor of evolution.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2017 12:35 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2017 12:03 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Modulous
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Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 49 of 83 (814135)
07-04-2017 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by caffeine
07-04-2017 2:58 PM


In Mike's defence, those aren't lizards.

In my defence, that which evolved into lizards is necessarily not a lizard

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by caffeine, posted 07-04-2017 2:58 PM caffeine has not yet responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 13106
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 50 of 83 (814138)
07-05-2017 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
07-04-2017 8:49 PM


Re: Evidence for kinds
quote:

Your note would appear to support my argument and not yours. I'll add that there is no reason creationist could not add something like "ability to produce viable offspring" to the criteria. In discussions, they generally do that

I am afraid that you are not paying attention. "Subtractive evidence" is - supposedly - evidence that the species are NOT in the same kind. The "ability to produce viable offspring" is NOT evidence of that - quite the reverse.

quote:

I agree that it is not the most important issue to be discussed, but I then I am not making an argument against evolution.

It is also not even related to the point I am making.

quote:

Yes. That is true of course. But not relevant to my comment.

The fact that you are drawing a false equivalence certainly seems to be relevant.

quote:

I am instead pointing out what I think is a strained, yet often repeated argument in favor of evolution.

Of course the fundamental point was "what evidence would we expect to see if 'kinds' were real". Since kinds are - by definition - separate creations with no evolutionary relationship clear boundaries are to be expected. Since even the creationists we are talking about agree that species are not separate creations but have evolutionary relationships to at least some other species it is not expected that we should be able to find clear boundaries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 07-04-2017 8:49 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 4:06 AM PaulK has responded
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Tangle
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Posts: 5036
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 51 of 83 (814227)
07-05-2017 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by PaulK
07-05-2017 12:03 AM


Re: Evidence for kinds
Paulk writes:

Of course the fundamental point was "what evidence would we expect to see if 'kinds' were real". Since kinds are - by definition - separate creations with no evolutionary relationship clear boundaries are to be expected. Since even the creationists we are talking about agree that species are not separate creations but have evolutionary relationships to at least some other species it is not expected that we should be able to find clear boundaries.

CRR posted an image showing the creationist version of acceptable evolution, showing these boundaries very clearly. We can imagine that each trunk represents a 'kind' taken onto the ark and the branches show evolution after the flood. Or at least that's how I'm reading it.

There then should be no links between birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians, fish, insects, etc etc. One clear distinction in kinds in the biblical account is between those approved for eating and scarifice and those not.

So presumably there should be a clear boundary between a pig and a cow?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2017 12:03 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2017 5:12 AM Tangle has responded
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1767
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 52 of 83 (814228)
07-05-2017 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
07-05-2017 4:06 AM


Re: Evidence for kinds
Tangle writes:

So presumably there should be a clear boundary between a pig and a cow?

Not surprisingly I had a creationist telling me that pigs and cattle are from the same 'Baramin'. Figure that.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 4:06 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 5:44 AM Pressie has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9906
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 53 of 83 (814229)
07-05-2017 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by PaulK
07-05-2017 12:03 AM


Re: Evidence for kinds
I am afraid that you are not paying attention. "Subtractive evidence" is - supposedly - evidence that the species are NOT in the same kind. The "ability to produce viable offspring" is NOT evidence of that - quite the reverse.

I did not say that they were the same thing. I said that there was nothing stopping a Creationist from offering "ability to produce viable offspring" as a rationale. In fact, Creationist posters here have used such reasoning. Perhaps it is you who are not paying attention.

As far as the fundamental point is concerned, here again, is your statement that I took issue with.

PaulK writes:

In reality - as we have recently seen - creationists looking for "kinds" do not find adequate evidence in biology and instead have to turn to scripture to identify the (supposed) boundaries.

I don't believe that statement to be correct. With a few notable exceptions, Creationists do not rely on scripture rather than biology. The only boundary that is closely tied to scripture is humans being separated away from every other animal. While a Creationist might not accept all of the evidence in biology, for the most part, they don't substitute scripture for those lacks.[1] In fact at least some biologic evidence, and I've cited one example, is just as helpful to Creationists. Yes, it is true that scripture cannot be contradicted, but there really is not much scripture to rely on or to avoid trampling.

[1] at least not for defining kinds.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2017 12:03 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2017 7:48 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5036
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 54 of 83 (814230)
07-05-2017 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Pressie
07-05-2017 5:12 AM


Re: Evidence for kinds
Pressie writes:

Not surprisingly I had a creationist telling me that pigs and cattle are from the same 'Baramin'. Figure that.

If it wasn't for the biblical reference, I reckon that's what they'd have to say - they're both even-toed ungulates. Like they'd group tapirs with elephants I assume - but really who knows what these people think - they all think something different.

quote:
The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

Genesis 7

quote:
Clean meat is defined as the meat of every animal that has the hoof cloven in two, and chews the cud. Some examples of clean meat are the ox (cattle), buffalo, sheep, goat, deer, gazelle, antelope and mountain sheep, just to name a few. Unclean meat examples are the pig, the camel, the hare and the rock badger.

Rock badger!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2017 5:12 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13106
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 55 of 83 (814232)
07-05-2017 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
07-05-2017 4:06 AM


Re: Evidence for kinds
quote:

So presumably there should be a clear boundary between a pig and a cow?

If you assume that the Bible is talking about Creationist "kinds" that would seem reasonable. Creationists do tend to make that assumption, although there is no good basis for it.


This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13106
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 56 of 83 (814233)
07-05-2017 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by NoNukes
07-05-2017 5:26 AM


Re: Evidence for kinds
quote:

I did not say that they were the same thing.

Since the point you were replying to was explicitly and exclusively dealing with "subtractive evidence" offering an additional criterion without explanation is naturally read as offering an additional example. And, of course, offering anything else would require an explanation of why it was relevant. Which was not provided.

quote:

I don't believe that statement to be correct. With a few notable exceptions, Creationists do not rely on scripture rather than biology

The point you are objecting to is that creationists do not find adequate evidence of kinds in biology and resort to scripture to make up the difference.

So far your response has been to assert that species don't look like separate creations either and to say that creationists can use some biological evidence to identify species as belonging to the same kind.

If you are going to object at least come up with objections that are relevant and and not obviously inadequate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 07-05-2017 5:26 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(4)
Message 57 of 83 (814245)
07-05-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
07-03-2017 12:06 PM


Re: EvC
mike the wiz writes:

Disqualify creationists from what? What I mean by "fully assess evolution" is a bit of sloppy typing. I should have really said the only ones who understand the full hypothetics of evolution theory to an expert level.

Anyone can learn the science and assess the theory itself. The problem is in finding creationists who are willing to learn the science.

In the scientific arena, the voices that count are from those who publish primary research papers in peer reviewed journals. This is true of every single scientific field. It's not a matter of being an expert, but a matter of being a scientist to does the science and publishes that science. As I have stated before, science is an activity, not a title.

In forums and debates like these, what matters is the ability to have a functional understanding the primary research papers. You don't have to understand every word, but you should be able to read a paper and get the general gist of it. You should also know the basic concepts of phylogenies, genetics, and anatomy. What we see over and over are creationists that can't read primary papers and get the basics of biology wrong. Because of this, we correctly point out that their opinions of evolution are based on ignorance.

That is like saying that being a fan of motor sport makes you a race driver. But take my advice - don't listen to the fan if you want to be instructed on how to race a car.

If someone said that modern car engines run on steam instead of gasoline, what would you think of their opinions on how race cars should be designed? That's kind of how we view creationists. When a creationist says that macroevolution is a cat evolving into a dog, that is the equivalent of saying that a 2017 Ford Mustang runs on steam.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2017 12:06 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by mike the wiz, posted 07-10-2017 5:55 AM Taq has responded
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13613
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 58 of 83 (814278)
07-05-2017 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
07-05-2017 4:06 AM


Re: Evidence for kinds
Tangle writes:

So presumably there should be a clear boundary between a pig and a cow?


Pigs must be "fallen" cows.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 4:06 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 3:43 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5036
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 59 of 83 (814280)
07-05-2017 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
07-05-2017 3:35 PM


Re: Evidence for kinds
ringo writes:

Pigs must be "fallen" cows.

Probably why they taste so good.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 07-05-2017 3:35 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1767
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 60 of 83 (814295)
07-06-2017 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Tangle
07-05-2017 3:43 PM


Re: Evidence for kinds
No, they taste so good because pigs have "less genetic information" than cows.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 3:43 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
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