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Author Topic:   Latest on the Republicans' war against health care
Faith
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Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 16 of 43 (814565)
07-10-2017 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Larni
07-10-2017 6:41 PM


Yes.

Hi back.

Thank you.


This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 17 of 43 (814635)
07-11-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
07-10-2017 6:28 PM


Faith writes:

In my opinion all utilities and infrastructure should be run by the government and the Republicans are on the wrong side about that. And that is NOT socialism, it's the necessary job of government.

"Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production . . ."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

It is socialism, by its very definition.

Faith writes:

However, education and other social institutions should not be run by government because they are about freedom of thought and if you leave them up to government we'll be run by the idiot leftists. Oh wait....

Sadly, insults is all you have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 07-11-2017 12:21 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
ringo
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Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 18 of 43 (814644)
07-11-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
07-11-2017 11:58 AM


removed

Edited by ringo, : removed.


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6385
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 19 of 43 (815009)
07-14-2017 12:36 PM


Newest Senate proposal
As promised, the Senate Republicans have produced their new health care "reform" bill:

Senate Republicans Unveil New Health Bill, but Divisions Remain

It's still uncertain whether or not it's going to pass:

Two Republican senators, Susan Collins of Maine, a moderate, and Rand Paul of Kentucky, a conservative, said they were not swayed — even on a procedural motion to take up the bill for debate.

More interesting:

“The Republican Trumpcare bill still slashes Medicaid,” Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the Democratic leader, said. “The cuts are every bit as draconian as they were in the previous version — a devastating blow to rural hospitals, to Americans in nursing homes, to those struggling with opioid addiction and so many more.”

When I was young, that was pretty much how Medicaid was criticized by the right: as a tax give-a-way to undeserving lazy poor people. It's interesting how it now seems to have a lot more support these days.

Republicans say they are trying to stabilize insurance markets and rescue consumers who face sky-high premiums and deductibles on the Affordable Care Act’s exchanges.

Funny enough, the insurance companies are complaining that the main source of instability in the exchanges are due to the Republican majority's hostility to Obamacare. If the Republicans would give up on trying to repeal it (or break it under the guise of "fixing" it) and would adequately finance the subsidies, the insurance companies would be happy to continue to participate.

-

Man, this is looking like political genius on the part of Obama. Some of us may remember that when it was passed, Obamacare was unpopular among a majority of Americans. Obama must have figured that once it was working and people saw how good it was for them, that would turn around.


Patriotism is the excuse that countries give to themselves for their failures. – Stephen Marche

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 20 of 43 (815010)
07-14-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Chiroptera
07-14-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Chiroptera writes:

It's still uncertain whether or not it's going to pass:

The problem Republicans are facing is that their effort to repeal the ACA was never about helping Americans get affordable health care. It has always been about politics, an effort to block Obama at every turn and remove any trace of his legacy.

When I was young, that was pretty much how Medicaid was criticized by the right: as a tax give-a-way to undeserving lazy poor people. It's interesting how it now seems to have a lot more support these days.

I think they are coming to realize that messing with Medicaid impacts a lot of their supporters.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-14-2017 1:29 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 21 of 43 (815011)
07-14-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taq
07-14-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
The problem Republicans are facing is that their effort to repeal the ACA was never about helping Americans get affordable health care. It has always been about politics, an effort to block Obama at every turn and remove any trace of his legacy.

Oh nonsense. I don't understand a lot about the economic side of things but what i'm hearing on conservative radio is that Obamacare financed health care for the poor at such a high premium for the middle class they couldn't afford it. The solutions being proposed are worse, however, by everybody's standards, nobody likes any of it. No idea where all this is going to end up. I haven't needed a lot of medical care fortunately but I've got Medicare plus Medicaid so I haven't had to think about what it costs. People are still paying for Obamacare though.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Taq, posted 07-14-2017 12:52 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 07-14-2017 4:04 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 23 by JonF, posted 07-14-2017 5:18 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 27 by 14174dm, posted 07-14-2017 11:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 22 of 43 (815028)
07-14-2017 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
07-14-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Faith writes:

Oh nonsense. I don't understand a lot about the economic side of things but what i'm hearing on conservative radio is that Obamacare financed health care for the poor at such a high premium for the middle class they couldn't afford it.

You are correct that you don't understand a lot about the economic side of things. Obamacare did not set prices for health insurance. That would be the health insurance companies. What Obamacare did was provide subsidies so that people never paid above a certain percentage of their income on premiums. Without Obamacare, they would have been paying more for the same insurance.

The solutions being proposed are worse, however, by everybody's standards, nobody likes any of it. No idea where all this is going to end up. I haven't needed a lot of medical care fortunately but I've got Medicare plus Medicaid so I haven't had to think about what it costs. People are still paying for Obamacare though.

They are far worse. Republicans want to allow insurance companies to sell bad insurance to healthy people so that their premiums are lower. These plans will hardly cover anything, so it is a bit laughable to call it insurance to begin with. What this does is take healthy people out of the risk pools and leaves a much higher percentage of sick people. This will cause premiums to skyrocket. On top of that, they want to take away some of those subsidies so not only will premiums skyrocket for sick people but they will be getting less assistance as well.

That doesn't even get to their plan to gut Medicaid which is the largest health care provider in the country.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 07-14-2017 5:23 PM Taq has responded

  
JonF
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Posts: 3801
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 23 of 43 (815038)
07-14-2017 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
07-14-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
They're lying about the ACA. There's been several reports released by Trump's agencies recently concluding the ACA is doing pretty well but needs improvement.

Sorry you're on Medicaid. Better start planning for doing without it. And paying more for Medicare. Lots more. We seniors are their primary target.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-14-2017 1:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
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Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 24 of 43 (815039)
07-14-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taq
07-14-2017 4:04 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Taq writes:

Faith writes:

The solutions being proposed are worse, however, by everybody's standards, nobody likes any of it. No idea where all this is going to end up. I haven't needed a lot of medical care fortunately but I've got Medicare plus Medicaid so I haven't had to think about what it costs. People are still paying for Obamacare though.

They are far worse. Republicans want to allow insurance companies to sell bad insurance to healthy people so that their premiums are lower. These plans will hardly cover anything, so it is a bit laughable to call it insurance to begin with. What this does is take healthy people out of the risk pools and leaves a much higher percentage of sick people. This will cause premiums to skyrocket. On top of that, they want to take away some of those subsidies so not only will premiums skyrocket for sick people but they will be getting less assistance as well.

That doesn't even get to their plan to gut Medicaid which is the largest health care provider in the country.

It is even worse, particularly for the willfully ignorant folk that would support the utter stupid plan proposed by the current crop of Conservatives.

Even those who are healthy today and could get by with the emasculated plan the Conservatives are trying to market will get sick at sometime in the future.

When that happens they will find that their utter stupidity in allowing this to happens simply means the safety net and money pool or insurance they need is simply unavailable.

Granted, they will likely be the last folk killed by this stupid bill and not the first, but it will still fuck them royally in the end.

The rich though will get richer. Screw anyone else.

Oh and Faith, they plan on fucking up both your Medicare and Medicaid as well.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 07-14-2017 4:04 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 25 of 43 (815040)
07-14-2017 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
07-14-2017 5:23 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
jar writes:

It is even worse, particularly for the willfully ignorant folk that would support the utter stupid plan proposed by the current crop of Conservatives.

I have to agree with Bernie on this one. Medicare for everyone is the best current solution. For people under 55 it could cover less and have people make up the difference with privately purchased supplemental insurance. For those 55 and older it could cover almost everything.

Health care costs are not going to go down until patients band together. As of now, there is simply no incentive for health care providers to lower costs. One of the largest not for profit (lol) hospitals where I live is on a huge spending binge on new facilities because their charter does not allow them to carry over profits from year to year. Even the non-profits can't figure out that maybe they should lower what they charge instead of building brand new shiny buildings every 6 months.

One of the main reasons that every other 1st world nation pays half of what the US does is that the government regulates the price. That is really the only way it is going to work in the US as well. Health care is a complete free market failure.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 07-14-2017 6:46 PM Taq has responded

  
Rrhain
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Posts: 6114
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


(2)
Message 26 of 43 (815042)
07-14-2017 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taq
07-14-2017 6:00 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Taq writes:

quote:
Medicare for everyone is the best current solution. For people under 55 it could cover less and have people make up the difference with privately purchased supplemental insurance. For those 55 and older it could cover almost everything.

So you're arguing to expand Medicare for those over 55? Because that's how it currently works: Medicare Part B only covers 80% of expenses and you are on the hook for the rest of it. That's why there are so many Part B Supplemental Insurance plans out there.

Medicare Part A covers 60 days of hospitalization for a deductible for a bit over $1000. Since most hospitalizations are about five days, this isn't too bizarre.

Part B covers office visits, blood tests, X-rays, CT scans, MRIs, and ER visits. It covers this at 80% with a deductible of about $200. Now, Medicare pays a rate for the services. If your doctor charges you $3000 for a procedure but Medicare says it will only pay $500 for it, then they will pay $400, you're on the hook for $100, and the rest is simply discarded. They have a schedule of rates.

You can buy a Part B co-insurance plan for a few thousand dollars a year which will cover the deductible and copays. Now for most people, they won't need Part B co-insurance, but you might need Part D coinsurance if you fall into the coverage gap.

Part D is the drug plan. You have a deductible to pay for your drugs (a few hundred dollars). After you reach the deductible, you then pay a percentage of the cost of the drug until you reach a higher limit (a few thousand dollars). Once you hit that level, you're then responsible for the full cost of your drugs until you reach the top deductible limit, after which you are only responsible for a copay or a small percentage of the drug.

In 2013, it would go like this:

1) You are responsible for 100% of the cost of your drugs until you hit $310.
2) You are then responsible for 25% of the cost of your drugs until you hit $2970.
3) You are then responsible for 100% of the cost of your drugs until you hit $4550.
4) You are then responsible for 5% for all drug costs or $2.65 generic/$6.60 name brand copay, whichever is greater, thereafter for that year.

Now, while you are in the donut hole (step 3), you will get a discount on the drugs (for 2013, 50% for name brand, 14% for generics).

Under the ACA, the donut hole was planned to be closed by 2020 and thus you'd only be at step 2: You pay until you hit the small deductible and are then only responsible for 25% of drug costs.

So depending upon your healthcare needs, you may need to buy Part B and/or Part D coinsurance. And that's for current Medicare patients. Are you asking to expand that even more?

Why not just expand the current Medicare system to all? Why restrict benefits to younger people? I can understand why we might need to ease into this since this is a big shift in the way medical care is managed, but I don't see any reason why your coverage should change just because of your age.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 07-14-2017 6:00 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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14174dm
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: 10-12-2015
Member Rating: 4.5


(5)
Message 27 of 43 (815047)
07-14-2017 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
07-14-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Taq: The problem Republicans are facing is that their effort to repeal the ACA was never about helping Americans get affordable health care. It has always been about politics, an effort to block Obama at every turn and remove any trace of his legacy.

quote:
Faith: Oh nonsense.

If the Republican party gave a damn about healthcare for the general population, then in the SIX YEARS or more of whining about the ACA, they would have come up with a replacement. Despite voters & the press asking repeatedly for their plan, the Republicans did NOTHING to prepare. If they really cared at all, they would have had legislation negotiated and written BEFORE the election. But they know they would have lost if they actually had to demonstrate what their whining and promises meant in actual legislation. Especially what is necessary to cut taxes for the wealthy.

The Republican leadership cares about only two things - Screwing the Democrats and cutting taxes for the wealthy.


This message is a reply to:
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Porosity
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Posts: 146
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 28 of 43 (815050)
07-15-2017 1:18 AM


Republicans don't give a shit about our country or the people in it. All you need to do is look how they vote, It's all about gaining personal wealth for themselves and those who can afford the price.

Edited by Porosity, : No reason given.


    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 29 of 43 (815229)
07-17-2017 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rrhain
07-14-2017 6:46 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Rrhain writes:

So depending upon your healthcare needs, you may need to buy Part B and/or Part D coinsurance. And that's for current Medicare patients. Are you asking to expand that even more?

First off, current eligibility for Medicare is 65 (with a few exceptions), so I would like to see that go down to 55. This would cover a lot more people with chronic conditions.

I would also like to see a "watered down" version of Medicare that is available to everyone under 55. All citizens and legal residents with a work visa would be eligible. This would be more along the lines of a catastrophic health insurance that wouldn't have caps, would have a high deductible but cover almost all expenses above that deductible, and would also cover preventative care such as colonoscopies (which I think is one of the best programs in the ACA). This would leave room for supplementary insurance that would cover the high deductible and possibly other benefits (dental, eye) not covered in the watered down Medicare for all version.

Perhaps this is a terrible idea, but it seems workable, at least to me. What we can't have is a hard working father who gets sick and has to choose between bankrupting his family or getting life saving medical treatments. That is just immoral.


This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6114
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


(4)
Message 30 of 43 (815244)
07-17-2017 8:19 PM


I certainly hope I'm not the only one noticing the great irony involved that the vote to eliminate health care has been suspended because McCain is using his very good healthcare.

We can only hope that McCain notices this, too, and thinks long and hard about what will happen to his constituents who are in precisely his position.

Remember, the Senate's bill exempts Congress.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 07-17-2017 8:31 PM Rrhain has responded

    
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