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Author Topic:   I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the continuing oppression of Palestinians?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 31 of 68 (816038)
07-28-2017 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by caffeine
07-26-2017 4:01 PM


What do "activities in the interstate or foreign commerce of the United States" actually refer to?

That is legalese. Congress' power to regulate commerce comes from the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution. That "activities" sentence expresses that the regulation is limited to, but covers the full extent of whatever the courts interpret the Commerce Clause to cover.

The statement you question has nothing to do with the activities of government employees. A foreign company located in the US and directing an international boycott would be subject to the law.

I don't see what right the government has to prevent a private business or individual from refusing to do business with foreign companies. Even less just would be to make it an fineable offense to request a boycott; as the new bill seems to propose. Prohibiting someone from proposing a policy is indefensible.

Of course, it is unjust. It's also unconstitutional.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 07-28-2017 9:09 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 53 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 11:58 PM NoNukes has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29182
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 32 of 68 (816039)
07-28-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
07-28-2017 8:56 AM


We may learn that we have totally misunderstood the Constitution.
NoNukes writes:

Of course, it is unjust. It's also unconstitutional.

The first is true but the latter has not been established yet. Other laws have been examined but we have a new court now and this proposed law has not been tested or even passed. Considering recent DOJ positions and the makeup of the SCOTUS I think the Constitutional Guarantee that "The Rights of a business shall not be infringed" may well take precedence.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2017 8:56 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2017 9:49 AM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 68 (816041)
07-28-2017 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
07-28-2017 9:09 AM


Re: We may learn that we have totally misunderstood the Constitution.
The first is true but the latter has not been established yet.

Well, no it could not have been established given that the bill is still a twinkle in the eye of a few Senators. It has not been enacted.

Nonetheless, the bill does run afoul of some very clear precedent, and I am quite comfortable with the opinion I have expressed that the law is unconstitutional on its face. Surely you are not saying that I need to label my own posts as my opinion?

As for the DOJ, I am not overly concerned about their opinion. It is that of the Supreme Court, that rightly or wrongly settles the issue.

"I think the Constitutional Guarantee that "The Rights of a business shall not be infringed" may well take precedence."

Which way do you think this will cut? If an American business were to decide not to buy diamonds from Israel, or if a bunch of musicians decided to leave Israel off of their next tour, how do you think would the Supreme Court rule if the DOJ imposed a huge fine?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 07-28-2017 9:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 07-28-2017 11:42 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 68 (816042)
07-28-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Riggamortis
07-28-2017 5:04 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
My quotes from Frontpagemag were chosen to prove that some claims made by Dronestar in his Message 22 about Israel maiming Palestinian children were in fact Palestinian propaganda. He had believed, for instance, that certain photos really show Israeli atrocities against Palestinians, but the evidence mustered by FPM shows that the photos of maimed children were either not about Palestinians, rather Syrians maimed by Assad, or in one case caused by a necessary medical procedure in a hospital, not about military action at all. Looks to me like FPM succeeded in showing that it WAS Palestinian propaganda, mustered good evidence against it. Dronestar had not offered evidence.

I would also predict that your quote from Amnesty International is basically propaganda, taken out of context. I will have to see if I can track down some evidence for that.

ABE: For instance: Israeli action that "demolishes homes" has usually been because the home is in reality an arsenal, or as I recall in some cases covers a tunnel for smuggling weapons. But that side of things isn't reported, so it always looks like Israel's actions are senseless. Also, as one of the FPM quotes mentions, the Palestinian leaders, Hamas in other words, don't make any effort to protect their own people from such attacks, even when warned by Israel in advance of their intended target. Even so, Israel takes pains to avoid civilian casualties. There will always be some anyway, but Hamas is responsible for many of them, their motive as usual being to point the finger at Israel. The fake photos have that purpose, so does keeping their people in harm's way when Israel plans a military operation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 5:04 AM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 12:47 PM Faith has responded
 Message 37 by Taq, posted 07-28-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29182
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 35 of 68 (816053)
07-28-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
07-28-2017 9:49 AM


Re: We may learn that we have totally misunderstood the Constitution.
NoNukes writes:

Which way do you think this will cut? If an American business were to decide not to buy diamonds from Israel, or if a bunch of musicians decided to leave Israel off of their next tour, how do you think would the Supreme Court rule if the DOJ imposed a huge fine?

Unfortunately I have to say that at this time I don't know what the Courts (including the Supreme Court) will decide or even if they would agree to hear such a case.

NoNukes writes:

As for the DOJ, I am not overly concerned about their opinion. It is that of the Supreme Court, that rightly or wrongly settles the issue.

The issue is if the DOJ is on record allowing businesses to discriminate almost at will would loss of business with Israel be significant enough to offset the advantages of freedom to discriminate.

The DOJ has now gone on record that the only place discrimination might be an issue is when the sex as recorded on the birth certificate is involved and we already know there is discrimination in wages between men and women that the courts have ignored forever.

Right now I believe the only saving factor out there is that today's Conservatives really are the bumbling bunch of idiots they appear to be and will most likely continue to implement the truly ignorant nonsense like keeping transgenders out of the military, guarding the bathroom door, rolling back same sex marriages, destroying health care, robbing pensions, Social Security and Medicare, destroying education and building the laughing stock border wall instead of doing the one thing that would assure their power base for generations.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2017 9:49 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 36 of 68 (816058)
07-28-2017 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
07-28-2017 9:53 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Ok Faith, every human rights organisation in the world condemns Israel as part of the greater Muslim conspiracy to take over the world, is that about right? From now on I'll keep in mind that when you use the term propaganda, you really mean things with which you disagree. Your source provided very little to support its claims beyond random quotes from alleged authority figures. Further, the existence of some photos released by vested interests in the conflict that are illegitimate do not constitute evidence of Amnesty International being involved in the distribution of propaganda.

Even so, Israel takes pains to avoid civilian casualties.

In illegally occupied territory? I'm sure you'd say the same thing about your own military, it's not a compelling excuse to continue the murder and subjugation of Muslims in their own homelands, however. Let's see what amnesty has to say about Israel demolishing houses.

Housing rights – forced evictions and demolitions

In the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, the Israeli authorities demolished 1,089 homes and other structures built without Israeli permits, an unprecedentedly high number of demolitions, forcibly evicting more than 1,593 people. Permits remained virtually impossible for Palestinians to obtain. Many of the demolitions were in Bedouin and herding communities which the Israeli authorities planned to transfer against the residents’ wishes. The authorities also collectively punished the families of Palestinians who carried out attacks on Israelis by demolishing or making uninhabitable 25 family homes, thereby forcibly evicting their inhabitants.

The authorities also demolished hundreds of Palestinian homes and other structures inside Israel that they said were built without permits, mostly in Bedouin villages in the Negev/Naqab region. Many of the villages were officially “unrecognized”.

Now, what does Israel do to prevent abuses?

Impunity

More than two years after the end of the 2014 Gaza-Israel conflict, in which some 1,460 Palestinian civilians were killed, many in evidently unlawful attacks including war crimes, the Israeli authorities had indicted only three soldiers for looting and obstructing an investigation. In August the Military Advocate General announced the closure of investigations into 12 incidents, despite evidence that some should be investigated as war crimes. Israel’s military investigations were not independent or impartial, and failed to deliver justice.

In a rare move, the Israeli military investigated, indicted and tried Elor Azaria, a soldier whose extrajudicial execution by shooting of a wounded Palestinian in Hebron was captured on film. The verdict in his case was expected to be delivered in January 2017. Most members of the Israeli forces who committed unlawful killings of Palestinians faced no repercussions. The Israeli army, Ministry of Justice and police also did not investigate, failed to investigate adequately, or closed investigations into cases of alleged unlawful killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces in both Israel and the OPT.

The authorities prosecuted several Jewish settlers for carrying out lethal attacks on Palestinians. In January, they charged two Israelis with committing an arson attack in July 2015 that killed three members of the Dawabsheh family, including a child aged 18 months. In May, a Jerusalem court sentenced Yosef Ben David to life imprisonment plus 20 years after convicting him of the abduction and murder of 16-year-old Palestinian Mohammed Abu Khdeir in July 2014.

The prosecutor of the ICC continued her preliminary examination of allegations of crimes under international law carried out by Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups since 13 June 2014. The Israeli government allowed an ICC delegation to visit Israel and the West Bank in October.

Israel is enforcing permit requirements on territory it occupies against the wishes of the inhabitants and the majority of nations on earth. I note that no war crimes have been prosecuted. Israeli 'settlers' have been prosecuted for crimes against Palestinians but its military remains mostly unaccountable.

Your view and source on the matter is so transparently based on the idea that Israel=good and Muslims=bad that it's impossible to understand how you yourself can be so blind to the fact. What if a leftist Israeli soldier murdered a Palestinian, would your biases then allow you to see it as murder?

Why doesn't the fact that the Arabs were promised Palestine for fighting in WW1 prior to the zionists being promised Israel for no real reason allow you to see why the Palestinians are rightfully angry. Britain allowed mass immigration of Jewish people to Palestine under its rule, after the League of Nations gave Palestine to them post-WW1. It then used the excuse that territories that could not be said to be purely Arab were not part of the McMahon agreement, from an earlier source;

The confusion arose from one small phrase in the correspondence between McMahon and Hussein. Land that “cannot be said to be purely Arab” was excluded from the agreement – as far as the British were concerned. Hussein, and very many Arab people, considered Palestine to be “purely Arab”. The British saw Palestine differently as the Turks, while they had been masters over Palestine, had allowed other religious groups to exist in Jerusalem – hence their belief that Palestine “cannot be said to be purely Arab”.

The state of Israel was created out of dishonour, deception and bloodshed. A legacy that continues to this day.

Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 07-28-2017 9:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 07-28-2017 6:22 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 07-28-2017 8:47 PM Riggamortis has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7029
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 37 of 68 (816059)
07-28-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
07-28-2017 9:53 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Faith writes:

ABE: For instance: Israeli action that "demolishes homes" has usually been because the home is in reality an arsenal, or as I recall in some cases covers a tunnel for smuggling weapons. But that side of things isn't reported, so it always looks like Israel's actions are senseless.

It isn't propaganda, Faith. It is reality. Israeli's demolish Palestinian homes and build Jewish settlements in their place in violation of long standing international law:

"The consensus view[103] in the international community is that the existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights is in violation of international law.[104]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Israeli_settlement#Legal_status

This is why the Arab world has a beef with Israel, because they are violating the law with respect to the Palestinian territories.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 07-28-2017 9:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 38 of 68 (816060)
07-28-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
07-28-2017 11:42 AM


Re: We may learn that we have totally misunderstood the Constitution.
...doing the one thing that would assure their power base for generations.

Which is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 07-28-2017 11:42 AM jar has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 39 of 68 (816064)
07-28-2017 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taq
07-28-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Israeli's demolish Palestinians homes and build Jewish settlements

Not just against international law. Israel's own courts, as recently as last November have ruled that such activity occurs and is illegal. The fact that Israel violates the law in this area should not even be considered controversial. Just unpopular.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taq, posted 07-28-2017 12:58 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 68 (816068)
07-28-2017 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Riggamortis
07-28-2017 12:47 PM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
I haven't been talking about the settlements, that's a change of subject which only distracts from the point I was making, which is that the photos referred to by Dronestar were propaganda fakes, and attempts to tar Israel with unconcern over civilian deaths are also propaganda promoted by Hamas' refusal to evacuate civilians warned of an attack.

If you want to talk about settlements I will have to read up on them but for the moment it's just a way to distract from the evidence of propaganda that is not disputable.

The legality of the settlements is disputed, and their necessity is tied in Israel's perspective to security from Palestinian attacks. That's all I know about that issue at the moment so I'll have to research the subject, but if this much is true it's obviously more evidence of total bias against Israel with no concern for fairness whatever. A complete and utter refusal to consider Israel's point of view is evident in most posts to this point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 12:47 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 68 (816075)
07-28-2017 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Riggamortis
07-28-2017 12:47 PM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Thought your post deserved a somewhat more specific reply than the one I gave.

Ok Faith, every human rights organisation in the world condemns Israel as part of the greater Muslim conspiracy to take over the world, is that about right?

I see no relation whatever between this comment and what I wrote, which gave evidence that photos purported to be of Palestinian children suffering on account of Israeli military action were in fact fake. Shouldn't you have acknowledged this?

And I gave another quote which referred to a common practice of the Palestinian leaders of keeping the civilian population exposed to danger even when Israel has given warning of their intent to strike what they know to be a weapons stronghold which was planted among civilians in typical Hamas style. This kind of tactic has been known for decades, obviously designed to discourage Israelis from attacking, precisely BECAUSE they know Israelis do not want to endanger civilians, contrary to the propaganda. So Israel gives a warning and in typical fashion the leaders prevent civilians from leaving the area. Israel then sometimes will not carry through a strike or will attempt to be surgical about it to spare the population.

None of this ever gets acknowledged by those who prefer to believe the propaganda. In most situations there are usually two sides to a story. You may side with one over the other even in taking note that there is some merit to the other side's position, but in this case not a shred of merit is considered for a moment. No, in this case, despite years of evidence that the Palestinians have been acting in bad faith in every dispute it is Israel that is treated as the villain. Totally, absolutely and strangely. Not a shred of merit to their position. And yet I can find lots of evidence of Palestinian deceit. Odd.

From now on I'll keep in mind that when you use the term propaganda, you really mean things with which you disagree.

Based on what? Nothing I've said, that's for sure. I showed that there is definitely propaganda against Israel by the Palestinian leaders, propaganda that is presented by people here as the truth. Shouldn't you instead be realizing you've been deceived by those photos and other deceits by Hamas?

urce provided very little to support its claims beyond random quotes from alleged authority figures. Further, the existence of some photos released by vested interests in the conflict that are illegitimate do not constitute evidence of Amnesty International being involved in the distribution of propaganda.

The fact that some photos can be traced to Syria that were purported to be of Palestinian origin is pretty good evidence for propaganda in the service of smearing Israel with lies. And another photo purported to be of a child maimed by Israeli military attack which turns out to be of a Palestinian child born with a disease that required the amputation of his limbs, which was done by caring Israelis in an Israeli hospital, where the photo was found, is also evidence of such a smear campaign.

The evidence is quite clear yet you dismiss it with a few absurd comments about "authority figures" and "vested interests?" What? The vested interests in this case are the Palestinian propagandists, but here you are joining in their propaganda efforts to smear Israel. Why? What is this determination to demonize Israel? Where is it coming from? What possesses you to take such an absurd position?

The rest of your post brings up other subjects. Which would be fine except that in this case they serve only to ignore the facts I've already given that demonstrate that there is a smear campaign against Israel. And that being the case with those facts there is every reason to suspect there is probably some of the same in the other issues you bring up. But as I said I will need to research those issues.

Meanwhile what you really ought to do is consider that your post misrepresented my points and maligned me as well as Israel. You might apologize.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 12:47 PM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 12:38 AM Faith has responded

    
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 42 of 68 (816079)
07-29-2017 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
07-28-2017 8:47 PM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
I did admit implicitly that bogus photos and stories exist when I said "Further, the existence of some photos released by vested interests in the conflict that are illegitimate do not constitute evidence of Amnesty International being involved in the distribution of propaganda."

You claim that some fraudulent photos exist, I agree. Does that in any way justify or reduce the impact of the things that are really happening? No. That is the point.

And I gave another quote which referred to a common practice of the Palestinian leaders of keeping the civilian population exposed to danger even when Israel has given warning of their intent to strike what they know to be a weapons stronghold which was planted among civilians in typical Hamas style. This kind of tactic has been known for decades, obviously designed to discourage Israelis from attacking, precisely BECAUSE they know Israelis do not want to endanger civilians, contrary to the propaganda.

It's not ALL propaganda. Secondly 'evacuate your land and dwellings before we demolish them in illegally occupied territory and build our own settlements' is not really a demand I can sympathise with.

Based on what? Nothing I've said, that's for sure. I showed that there is definitely propaganda against Israel by the Palestinian leaders, propaganda that is presented by people here as the truth. Shouldn't you instead be realizing you've been deceived by those photos and other deceits by Hamas?

The rampant islamaphobia expressed in the articles you cite degrades their credibility. If you're pushing an agenda, best not push it so openly as to be completely transparent. I have agreed that some photos are released deceitfully by Hamas etc..

Your position seems to be if some are, all are. Also that if some propaganda against Israel exists then even human rights organisations are simply spreading it rather than doing any real investigation into violations. Both positions seem indefensible to me. You want people to 'look at both sides' but in reality you are simply claiming one side is propaganda and the other not. How am I to respect that?

The evidence is quite clear yet you dismiss it with a few absurd comments about "authority figures" and "vested interests?" What? The vested interests in this case are the Palestinian propagandists, but here you are joining in their propaganda efforts to smear Israel. Why? What is this determination to demonize Israel? Where is it coming from? What possesses you to take such an absurd position?

I dismiss a few false or misleading news stories and pictures as being evidence that human rights orgs are all lying about Israels violations of international treaties and laws. The determination to demonise Israel comes from the same place my determination to demonise the US and my own country comes from, namely the place where they murder Muslims in their homes, among other things.

"The vested interests in this case.." in the specific case of the fraudulent photos, yes. In the greater context, both sides have vested interests, an observable fact you seemingly choose to ignore.

The rest of your post brings up other subjects. Which would be fine except that in this case they serve only to ignore the facts I've already given that demonstrate that there is a smear campaign against Israel.

Demonstrating that there have been hundreds of instances of misleading pictures and news stories doesn't demonstrate that Israel is not guilty of all charges. That human rights orgs and intergovernmental agencies are saying they are illegally occupying territory and committing war crimes is pretty solid evidence that their is at least some truth to the claims. Smear campaign or not, they are committing atrocities.

I brought up other things that I thought are relevant background knowledge in the conflict and making judgments about who is right or wrong from an overall perspective because I wondered how you rationalise those historical facts with your support for Israel now.

ABE

Meanwhile what you really ought to do is consider that your post misrepresented my points and maligned me as well as Israel. You might apologize.

Thanks for the chuckle. Perhaps if you had comprehended my points properly you'd have realised I did acknowledge your point as I have demonstrated in this post. I'd apologise if I had posted anything misleading but not for being a priori anti-war or critical of warmongers.

Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 07-28-2017 8:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-29-2017 1:13 AM Riggamortis has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 68 (816080)
07-29-2017 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 12:38 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Apparently I misunderstood you, for which I apologize, although your sentence doesn't read to me like an acknowledgment of the propaganda. And I guess I missed the reference to Amnesty International in that context, although I regard them along with other international bodies as unfair to Israel.

Demonstrating that there have been hundreds of instances of misleading pictures and news stories doesn't demonstrate that Israel is not guilty of all charges.

That's utterly ridiculous. Since the propaganda is intended to bring those charges in the first place of course it shows them not guilty of those invented by the propaganda.

That human rights orgs and intergovernmental agencies are saying they are illegally occupying territory and committing war crimes is pretty solid evidence that their is at least some truth to the claims.

Not at all. I'm only too aware that we live in a world these days where lies have way too much influence on public opinion. There is good reason to argue that Israel is not illegally occupying anything, and they are certainly not guilty of war crimes except according to the usual weird Leftist conjurings, and the existence of such accusations is far from proving truth at all.

Smear campaign or not, they are committing atrocities.

Oh well, every conversation here ends up with Leftist lies and this one is no exception. I shouldn't ever expect anything else.

As I said I will need to do some research to continue the discussion. But your accusation of Islamophobia doesn't suggest I'll find much fairness on your part. All I've argued so far concerns quite provable propaganda against Israel and you reduce that to "Islamophobia?" Perhaps I should accuse you of anti-Semitism then-- because if my political views of the Israel-Palestinian situation are to be dismissed as a personal irrational attitude rather than an objective argument, those on the other side certainly deserve to be accused of anti-Semitism. Let me put it this way: If you continue to call me an Islamophobe I will certainly answer by calling you an anti-Semite. Just so the conversation can be kept on the same level.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 12:38 AM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 3:37 AM Faith has responded

    
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 44 of 68 (816087)
07-29-2017 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
07-29-2017 1:13 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Perhaps I should accuse you of anti-Semitism then-- because if my political views of the Israel-Palestinian situation are to be dismissed as a personal irrational attitude rather than an objective argument, those on the other side certainly deserve to be accused of anti-Semitism. Let me put it this way: If you continue to call me an Islamophobe I will certainly answer by calling you an anti-Semite. Just so the conversation can be kept on the same level.

Great I encourage you to do so, I would also encourage you to specifically quote where I have judged Israel or its Jewish inhabitants based on their religion as opposed to their actions alongside your charge. Let me put it this way: If you don't, (insert pathetic childish threat). Let me help you with some examples of anti-Semitic statements and some that aren't.

Are
'All Jews are scum'
'Jews are the main problem in the world'
'Jewish people represent a grave threat to the world'

Aren't
'Jewish people/Israel committed x atrocity'
'Jews immigrated to Palestine in large numbers under British rule in what appears to have been a coordinated effort to undermine the Palestinian claim to the land'

If you can quote a statement made by me that fits into the former category I will retract it with my sincerest apologies. If you cannot but proceed with the charge anyway, then may your god have mercy on your soul.

That's utterly ridiculous. Since the propaganda is intended to bring those charges in the first place of course it shows them not guilty of those invented by the propaganda.

Yes, those specific charges. Not all charges levelled by all parties. That's the fact you keep ignoring. Yet my completely self evident point is 'utterly ridiculous'.

All I've argued so far concerns quite provable propaganda against Israel and you reduce that to "Islamophobia?"

As with your potential charge of anti-semitism, if you can quote me charging you specifically with islamaphobia I will consider whether it was justified based its context then retract and apologise for it or stand by it as I see fit. I have claimed that your sources contain obviously islamaphobic undertones which I guess I should now substantiate. From the unbiased-not-propaganda front page mag-

There is a gaping fallacy in this inventory of fault-finding: it is Hamas which is the prime user of “collective punishment” in Gaza; it is Hamas, which abuses and exploits its own people for the sake of maintaining power; like any and all other dictatorial regimes, it is the real cause of suffering of its people. Truly innocent sacrifices among the Hamas victims are Palestinian children.

From your second link, not blatant islamaphobia yet, I'll get to that. This link first compares Hamas to Stalins regime before 'conceding' that Hamas was democratically elected so are more analogous to the nazis. It rants about the fake pictures and such and then concludes with the quoted text. It ultimately rationalises the justification for Israels violent, oppressive actions by blaming Hamas violent, oppressive actions. Deaths caused directly by Israel are Hamas fault therefore Israel is good and Hamas evil. Nice way to be able to make it so black and white huh?

This is the hypocritical, islamaphobic article I was referring to before. I had clicked it from your page of headlines link. The following is offered as the 'solution - free speech'

One of the biggest challenges facing the free world today is protecting Free Speech. This freedom is widely trampled by Muslim dictatorships who control their populations by eliminating free speech. They justify harsh actions against dissenting voices by labeling them "traitors, collaborators, thieves," etc.

To make matters worse, Western society – under the guise of political correctness – is silencing itself. The rules of political correctness make it increasingly difficult to condemn Radical Islam and its goal of violent conquest.

Encouraging open dialogue is the best chance for wisdom and truth to prevail.
For the free world, the response to these abuses of free speech should be even more speech – clear, factual speech that enables thinking individuals to understand the reality. Encouraging open dialogue is the best chance for wisdom and truth to prevail.

Israel also imprisons people who refuse military service and has passed legislation to silence NGO's who speak against its HR violations. The first paragraph claims ironically in the context of this thread, that Muslim dictatorships are the primary threat to free speech. The second clearly promotes the fallacious idea that extreme Islam is some fundamental, existential threat to western society. This is islamaphobia, being an irrational fear.

The truth of the matter is that if you look at it objectively, there's no real difference between Hamas or the Taliban or the Israeli and US militaries outside the 'legitimacy' of the state. Both sides kill people in order to further their geo-political aims. Western militaries are not immune from committing atrocities not disimilar to the Islamic militants. When a suicide bomber attacks the west, its no different to a US drone strike at a wedding. Remove all the fluff and you're just picking a side and rationalising murder.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-29-2017 1:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 07-29-2017 4:07 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 07-29-2017 5:46 AM Riggamortis has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 68 (816089)
07-29-2017 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 3:37 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
back later.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 3:37 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded

    
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