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Author Topic:   Is it "Politically Correct"...
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 136 of 195 (817518)
08-17-2017 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
08-15-2017 8:52 PM


NCE writes:

So when Black Lives Matters goes to the streets and chants "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" and "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now.", and then people actually go out and kill cops, are you on board with BLM being dealt with for this?


HUH?

Sorry but dealt with for what?

Ask vimesey, from Message 33 that I replied to:

quote:
We're not talking about an official spokesman, are we? I thought we were talking about some guy in the crowd.

Mine was a reply to your message 8, in which you said "Authorities should only be able to deal with individuals who break the law" - I believe they should be able to deal with associations of individuals also, when the associations are held to have broken the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 08-15-2017 8:52 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by JonF, posted 08-18-2017 8:16 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 137 of 195 (817536)
08-18-2017 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
08-17-2017 5:59 PM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
Are you arguing that accidental deaths are entirely acceptable?

Isn't it reasonable to argue that more should be done to try to prevent such deaths ?

And if a murdering cop was only caught because his actions were recorded in video how do you know that there aren't other cases where such evidence wasn't available ? Isn't it reasonable to suppose that there are at least some ? And that the murdering cops lied about what happened - as Michael Slager did ?

Think about it. It's pretty hard for a cop to get away free if there is solid evidence of murder (although it sadly seems that getting convictions can be hard even when there is good evidence Judge Declares Mistrial ).

The mere fact that a cop was caught murdering a man and lying about it - and came worryingly close to getting away with it makes it virtually certain that there are other cases where the cop was not caught.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 5:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 8:51 AM PaulK has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 138 of 195 (817544)
08-18-2017 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 11:30 PM


It's worth pointing out that there were no BLM chants of "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now."

Chants Encounter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26611
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 139 of 195 (817547)
08-18-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by PaulK
08-18-2017 4:17 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
Are you arguing that accidental deaths are entirely acceptable?

Don't be ricdiculous, of course not. I'm arguing that they don't show racist intentions and don't deserve wholesale cop murder in retaliation.

Isn't it reasonable to argue that more should be done to try to prevent such deaths ?

Sure, but in your opinion is taking to the streets and burning down buildings and attacking people and murdering cops doing more to prevent such deaths?

And if a murdering cop was only caught because his actions were recorded in video how do you know that there aren't other cases where such evidence wasn't available ?

Isn't it reasonable to suppose that there are at least some ? And that the murdering cops lied about what happened - as Michael Slager did ?

Think about it. It's pretty hard for a cop to get away free if there is solid evidence of murder (although it sadly seems that getting convictions can be hard even when there is good evidence Judge Declares Mistrial ).

The mere fact that a cop was caught murdering a man and lying about it - and came worryingly close to getting away with it makes it virtually certain that there are other cases where the cop was not caught.

There no doubt have been other such incidents, but BLM is BASED ON the ones I've referred to, ones where there is NO justification whatever that I can see, involving an absolute denial of black criminality and black provocation of the cops. And most of those were due to cops overreacting from fear, so I would assume there would be many more of those unrecorded as well. And how are you going to rectify that problem, which is no doubt racist in the sense that the cops expect more violence from blacks?

Why now when there IS better evidence is a murdering destructive rampage considered justifiable? Now when presumably it should be easier to make the case you want to see made?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 4:17 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 9:13 AM Faith has responded
 Message 141 by JonF, posted 08-18-2017 9:26 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 08-18-2017 11:09 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 140 of 195 (817551)
08-18-2017 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
08-18-2017 8:51 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
quote:

Don't be ricdiculous, of course not. I'm arguing that they don't show racist intentions and don't deserve wholesale cop murder in retaliation

Since nobody here is suggesting that wholesale cop murder is even remotely acceptable you are the one being ridiculous. But if accidents of this sort happen it is hardly unreasonable to suggest that something should be done and if they happen disproportionately to Blacks...

quote:

Sure, but in your opinion is taking to the streets and burning down buildings and attacking people and murdering cops doing more to prevent such deaths?

Certainly not.

quote:

There no doubt have been other such incidents,

You are missing the point. You said:

quote:

Find me ONE case where an innocent black man was killed for no reason at all and the cop got awy free.

And I point out that the there very likely - almost certainly - have been such cases. It's just that proving an individual case rather works against the "cop got away free" part.

quote:

but BLM is BASED ON the ones I've referred to, ones where there is NO justification whatever that I can see, involving an absolute denial of black criminality and black provocation of the cops.

Because obviously the kid with a toy gun was a criminal....

I think you have made it adequately clear that you do NOT think it reasonable to suggest that there should be fewer such deaths.

quote:

Why now when there IS better evidence is a murdering destructive rampage considered justifiable? Now when presumably it should be easier to make the case you want to see made?

Ask people who say it's justifiable.

But in return I'll ask you what's the point in smearing BLM ? Do you just think that unjustifiable deaths are worth it if you can hurt the Left ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 8:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 9:33 AM PaulK has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 141 of 195 (817554)
08-18-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
08-18-2017 8:51 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
BLM is BASED ON the ones I've referred to, ones where there is NO justification whatever that I can see, involving an absolute denial of black criminality and black provocation of the cops. And most of those were due to cops overreacting from fear, so I would assume there would be many more of those unrecorded as well.

They are entitled to their opinion.

None of those case or the subsequent discussion is evidence for "my impression is that BLM for sure and possibly also Antifa, want a Holocaust of the white race" or "The evidence is good that the BLM are out to kill cops and white people and are happy to say so. "

Got any?

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 8:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26611
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 195 (817555)
08-18-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by PaulK
08-18-2017 9:13 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
Look, you've been implying that BLM's tactics are fine with you up until this post when you've decided to upbraid me for supposing that. I haven't seen you decrying their violence until now. Genomicus for one has outright defended it so I know some on the Left do that.

There was one outright murder by a cop in this collection of incidents, Slager. And it was prosecuted.

There were two cases of cops being provoked: Michael Brown who was involved in a petty crime the officer was responding to, who then attacked the officer; and Trayvon Martin who threatened whatshisname, not a cop exactly but in a position of authority.

There was one accidental death: Garner

There was one death from extreme negligence: forget his name the guy who died from injuries caused by being tossed around in the cop car, and it was prosecuted. If you want to put Garner in this category, fine with me. Both were caused by black officers so you can't call it racist.

Then there are the deaths as a result of cops' fearfulness. Tamir Rice was a very sad case of a kid waving around a toy gun and the cops thinking it was real. On the surveillance video you see them cowering behind their car, or one of them I forget. The recent case of the man shot in his car who had told the officer he had a gun in the car is another sad case. You can hear the fear in the cop's voice on the video. I thought there were more of this kind of incident but I guess there were only these two.

I am certainly in favor of doing something to avoid such incidents. How about a program of educating the black community not to threaten cops, not to resist arrest, keep your hands visible, like on the steering wheel, and don't go waving around toy guns? I don't see what the cops themselves could have done differently in any of those situations. Do you?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 9:13 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 9:59 AM Faith has responded
 Message 153 by Modulous, posted 08-18-2017 7:18 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 143 of 195 (817559)
08-18-2017 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
08-18-2017 9:33 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
quote:

Look, you've been implying that BLM's tactics are fine with you up until this post when you've decided to upbraid me for supposing that. I haven't seen you decrying their violence until now.

My only comment on this supposed violence so far is to say that I haven't seen the evidence that BLM are anything like as bad as you say they are. I'm not about to condemn alleged violence until I know it's actually happened.

quote:

There were two cases of cops being provoked: Michael Brown who was involved in a petty crime the officer was responding to, who then attacked the officer; and Trayvon Martin who threatened whatshisname, not a cop exactly but in a position of authority.

Zimmerman was only a neighbourhood watch coordinator who took it upon himself to stalk Trayvon Martin - not a police officer or a security guard. Zimmerman was the one with a gun and we only have his story about what happened. While he was cleared legally it was more because we don't know what happened than because we know he's innocent.

You are on firmer ground with Michael Brown.

quote:

I am certainly in favor of doing something to avoid such incidents. How about a program of educating the black community not to threaten cops, not to resist arrest, keep your hands visible, like on the steering wheel, and don't go waving around toy guns? I don't see what the cops themselves could have done differently in any of those situations. Do you?

Not so long ago you were comparing the Bundy situation with Waco, but only one of the Bundy's supporters was killed (one of the occupiers of the wildlife refuge), and it seems that he actually was reaching for a gun.

Teaching officers to be less trigger happy would be a start. Is cooperating with police enough when even that didn't save the guy shot in his car ? In neither case was there any need to shoot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 9:33 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 10:21 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26611
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 144 of 195 (817564)
08-18-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by PaulK
08-18-2017 9:59 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
I don't remember all that clearly I admit but I had the impression that there was both witness evidence and some kind of physical evidence that Trayvon Martin acted in a threatening manner. But maybe I'm confusing him with Michael Brown.

As for "teaching officers to be less trigger happy" the problem is that if the cop is scared, which I agree is hard to justify in the case of the shooting of the guy in his car, how do you teach a cop not to be fearful? The guy was cooperative by the sound of his voice and I would think the cop could tell that too, but apparently he moved his hand out of sight and that is what scared the cop. Keeping your hands visible is the first rule of how not to threaten someone if you possess a gun. My guess is you CAN'T teach cops out of that fearfulness, they've had too many experiences of having good reason to be fearful; but basic rules of how not to be threatening should be teachable.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 9:59 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 10:39 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 145 of 195 (817567)
08-18-2017 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by JonF
08-18-2017 8:16 AM


See for yourself: https://youtu.be/hqQXmnMr_w8
This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by JonF, posted 08-18-2017 8:16 AM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 146 of 195 (817571)
08-18-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
08-18-2017 10:21 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
quote:

I don't remember all that clearly I admit but I had the impression that there was both witness evidence and some kind of physical evidence that Trayvon Martin acted in a threatening manner. But maybe I'm confusing him with Michael Brown.

Witness statements did not who identify how the fight started, but it is entirely possible that Zimmerman provoked Martin more than the other way around. Also, as I pointed out Zimmerman had no authority.

quote:

As for "teaching officers to be less trigger happy" the problem is that if the cop is scared, which I agree is hard to justify in the case of the shooting of the guy in his car, how do you teach a cop not to be fearful? The guy was cooperative by the sound of his voice and I would think the cop could tell that too, but apparently he moved his hand out of sight and that is what scared the cop

The way I remember it, he was reaching for his license papers, as instructed.

More to the point, police officers should not be keen to shoot first - yes, it is sometimes risky, but that is a part of the job. Shooting should be saved for when it is needed - and panic is something that ought to be avoided in all cases.

quote:

but basic rules of how not to be threatening should be teachable.

You'd think that a guy who was helpless after a minor stroke would not be threatening. He still got tased for not responding to police officer's demands.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 10:21 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 147 of 195 (817572)
08-18-2017 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:16 PM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
Faith writes:

That is a very recent case.

It is one of many cases where the black community feels there is police abuse. We could go back to Rodney King if you like.

That recent case is another case of a cop rashly overreacting, to a really extreme degree, but I don't think you can call for murdering all coops on the basis of that kind of overreaction, which could only get worse with that kind of "solution" anyway.

Black Lives Matter is not calling for any police officer to be hurt. Yes, there are hot heads who will do stupid things, but the movement as a whole is peaceful.

As for only having the word of the cop, most of the cases I've referred to I've seen on video, and in the case of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin I've read the evidence against them and it is convincing that they acted provocatively.

A recent case in Baltimore had police officers planting drugs on people. They even tried to work around their body cams, but one body cam finally caught it. What was happening before body cams?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 148 of 195 (817573)
08-18-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
08-18-2017 8:51 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
Faith writes:

Sure, but in your opinion is taking to the streets and burning down buildings and attacking people and murdering cops doing more to prevent such deaths?

This constant deflection to other groups is a rather obvious ploy to support white supremacists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 8:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 4:50 PM Taq has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13881
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 149 of 195 (817590)
08-18-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
08-17-2017 5:25 PM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
Faith writes:

Otherwise the impression is just that they are the South's war heroes and since we've all heard their names it's hard to think of them as representing racism.


Rommel was just a German war hero. Do you think statues of him wouldn't suggest Nazism at all?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 5:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 150 of 195 (817596)
08-18-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
08-17-2017 5:25 PM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
If the statues were in fact intended to represent white supremacy and slavery that should be made a lot clearer.

It's clear to many many many people, including those who know the history.

Otherwise the impression is just that they are the South's war heroes and since we've all heard their names it's hard to think of them as representing racism.

Maybe hard for you. Exceptionally easy for lots of others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 5:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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