Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8790 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-24-2017 8:38 PM
349 online now:
halibut, jar, Percy (Admin), RAZD, Rrhain (5 members, 344 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Upcoming Birthdays: Tempe 12ft Chicken
Post Volume:
Total: 819,364 Year: 23,970/21,208 Month: 1,935/2,468 Week: 28/416 Day: 28/24 Hour: 3/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
56Next
Author Topic:   Revolting middle class. If the rich keep funding war with the lives of the lower clas
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1809
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 46 of 86 (819168)
09-07-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Greatest I am
09-07-2017 1:03 PM


Polite Lets Be
Lets keep our arguments focused on the substance of the discussion and not on each other.

Forum Guidelines


  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:03 PM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 47 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:15 PM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

        
    Greatest I am
    Member
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 47 of 86 (819169)
    09-07-2017 1:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 46 by AdminPhat
    09-07-2017 1:08 PM


    Re: Polite Lets Be
    I tried but was pushed and gave an argument.

    Regards
    DL


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by AdminPhat, posted 09-07-2017 1:08 PM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 48 of 86 (819170)
    09-07-2017 1:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 45 by Greatest I am
    09-07-2017 1:03 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Greatest I am writes:

    You did a disservice to all the millions who starve to death yearly as well as telling the less fit, who know that they are not as fit as some...


    They don't starve because they are "less fit". A victim is not "less fit". Calling them "less fit" is doing them a disservice, as if they deserve to die.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:03 PM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:45 PM ringo has responded

      
    Greatest I am
    Member
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 49 of 86 (819175)
    09-07-2017 1:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 48 by ringo
    09-07-2017 1:17 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSNYToj7yFw

    You think your way I will think mine.

    Regards
    DL


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by ringo, posted 09-07-2017 1:17 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 50 by ringo, posted 09-08-2017 12:03 PM Greatest I am has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 50 of 86 (819264)
    09-08-2017 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 49 by Greatest I am
    09-07-2017 1:45 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Greatest I am writes:

    You think your way I will think mine.


    You can think your way all you want without posting here. But if you're going to post here, back up what you claim.

    So far, what you've said about "fitness" is nonsense. Society is a matter of give and take. Those who take also give. You can not determine who is "fit" based on whether they are giving or taking at a given moment.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:45 PM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 51 by Greatest I am, posted 09-08-2017 1:54 PM ringo has responded

      
    Greatest I am
    Member
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 51 of 86 (819270)
    09-08-2017 1:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
    09-08-2017 12:03 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Your last is true, but they can be viewed as a subset of society whose fitness can be measured beside the more fit.

    The capability and capasity to give to a society is one of the measures of that individuals fitness. So is the lack of that ability.

    If not, show why not.

    Regards
    DL

    Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by ringo, posted 09-08-2017 12:03 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 52 by ringo, posted 09-09-2017 11:48 AM Greatest I am has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 52 of 86 (819316)
    09-09-2017 11:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 51 by Greatest I am
    09-08-2017 1:54 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Greatest I am writes:

    The capability and capasity to give to a society is one of the measures of that individuals fitness. So is the lack of that ability.

    If not, show why not.


    I have already pointed out that there are no fixed subsets of "givers" and "takers". He who gives one day takes the next day. How do you measure contributions that don't involve dollars and cents? How do you determine what is a contribution and what is not?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by Greatest I am, posted 09-08-2017 1:54 PM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 12:22 PM ringo has responded

      
    Greatest I am
    Member
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 53 of 86 (819322)
    09-09-2017 12:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
    09-09-2017 11:48 AM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Ringo

    I did not say that tax takers do not contribute at all. I said that they are less fit and contribute less due to having to be tax takers. Or something along that line.

    Certainly some of the less fit tax takers contribute, just not as much as the more fit or lucky.

    Regards
    DL


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by ringo, posted 09-09-2017 11:48 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 54 by ringo, posted 09-09-2017 12:28 PM Greatest I am has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 54 of 86 (819325)
    09-09-2017 12:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 53 by Greatest I am
    09-09-2017 12:22 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Greatest I am writes:

    I did not say that tax takers do not contribute at all. I said that they are less fit and contribute less due to having to be tax takers.


    I asked how you determine what is a contribution and what is not, and how you measure "how much" each contribution is. Without some kind of objective metric, you have no basis for claiming that one person is "more fit" than another.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 12:22 PM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 55 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 12:42 PM ringo has responded

      
    Greatest I am
    Member
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 55 of 86 (819328)
    09-09-2017 12:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
    09-09-2017 12:28 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    You are asking for subjective judgements of individual cases.

    I can only answer if you give the scenario or issue you want me to address.

    I gave one fitness metric, that being tax paying v/s tax taking, that a state, if it could talk, would say that the payers are more fit than the takers.

    Other metrics could be reproduction, ability to raise children, contributions to science and the arts, the ability to help others.

    A short list but that is what comes to mind quickly.

    So what metric, if not those, should I be looking at.

    Which ones are you looking at that makes you think those I call less fit tax taxers are just as fit as taxpayers?

    Regards
    DL


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 54 by ringo, posted 09-09-2017 12:28 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 09-09-2017 12:54 PM Greatest I am has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 56 of 86 (819329)
    09-09-2017 12:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 55 by Greatest I am
    09-09-2017 12:42 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Greatest I am writes:

    You are asking for subjective judgements of individual cases.


    No I'm not. I even used the word "objective". I'm asking for objective criteria which you can use to determine whether somebody is "more fit" than somebody else.

    Greatest I am writes:

    I gave one fitness metric, that being tax paying v/s tax taking....


    We've been over that. There isn't one finite group paying taxes and another finite group receiving the benefits of taxes. Everybody pays taxes and everybody receives the benefits of taxes.

    Greatest I am writes:

    Other metrics could be reproduction, ability to raise children...


    We've been over that too. In fact, people with lower incomes tend to have more children.

    Greatest I am writes:

    ... the ability to help others.


    Again everybody has the ability to help others. How do you measure the value of grandpa taking the kids to the park? How do you measure the value of pushing your neighbour's car out of a snowdrift?

    Greatest I am writes:

    So what metric, if not those, should I be looking at.


    You should be looking at a metric that supports your claim, an objective criterion that can be used to determine who is "fit" and who is not.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 12:42 PM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 1:16 PM ringo has responded

      
    Greatest I am
    Member
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 57 of 86 (819333)
    09-09-2017 1:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
    09-09-2017 12:54 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Ringo

    Seems we are about done if you want to believe you have refuted most of what I put, when you have not.

    "No I'm not. I even used the word "objective". I'm asking for objective criteria which you can use to determine whether somebody is "more fit" than somebody else."

    Since most issues are subjective, the only objective criteria I can give is death.

    The fittest is alive the least fit is dead.

    Regards
    DL


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 09-09-2017 12:54 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by ringo, posted 09-09-2017 1:26 PM Greatest I am has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 58 of 86 (819335)
    09-09-2017 1:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by Greatest I am
    09-09-2017 1:16 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Greatest I am writes:

    Since most issues are subjective, the only objective criteria I can give is death.


    So, since you admit that your conclusion is based on subjective criteria, you must also admit that your conclusion is subjective. You might as well just tell us what your favorite colour is.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 1:16 PM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 6:12 PM ringo has responded

      
    Greatest I am
    Member
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 59 of 86 (819340)
    09-09-2017 6:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
    09-09-2017 1:26 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Maroon.

    But even that will be subjective as many of us are color blind.

    Regards
    DL


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by ringo, posted 09-09-2017 1:26 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by ringo, posted 09-10-2017 2:07 PM Greatest I am has responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13644
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 60 of 86 (819390)
    09-10-2017 2:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Greatest I am
    09-09-2017 6:12 PM


    Re: Dumbest We Are?
    Greatest I am writes:

    But even that will be subjective as many of us are color blind.


    So your whole point about "fitness" isn't really a point at all. It's just an opinion.

    Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 6:12 PM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by Greatest I am, posted 09-10-2017 3:37 PM ringo has responded

      
    Prev123
    4
    56Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017