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Author Topic:   YECism: sect or cult?
Tangle
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From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
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(1)
Message 31 of 95 (820829)
09-28-2017 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
09-28-2017 3:13 AM


Re: Lets Start With Recent History
Phat writes:

My conclusion is that creationism lacks the evidence that is needed to convince mainstream science.

It's really hard not to say 'no shit Sherlock' to this but I can see that you're being sincere.

Mainstream science rejected creationism over 100 years ago. That simply a fact. It was fatally injured by geology and despatched by biology and astronomy. Ever since, every single piece of evidence has confirmed an old earth and an evolution of species.

It's simply not discussed in science anymore, if you inhabit a religious world in the US and read creation arguments you may think that there's still an argument to be had, but there isn't. Outside the tiny US creationist bubble there is NO argument at all. It's proven beyond human means of detection that the earth is old and that the bible stories are mostly fiction.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Phat
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Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 32 of 95 (820830)
09-28-2017 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
09-28-2017 3:29 AM


Science or Theology
I think that in this topic we should stick to the replicable evidence. A Global Flood or the absence thereof is easier to prove/disprove than God in human flesh. The latter has no objective evidence. In addition, YEC purports to be scientific...though you have a point that the origins are in fact religious.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

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 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 3:29 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 34 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 7:37 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 13374
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 33 of 95 (820833)
09-28-2017 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
09-28-2017 5:02 AM


Re: Science or Theology
It might be easier to come to an answer which can be strongly supported by the empirical evidence - but we already know that answer. An old Earth, no global Flood, evolution.

YEC is simply not viable as science.

To a sincere YEC the theology is primary - and if they don't have a solid case there, then their whole position becomes far less tenable. We can keep it to a (broad) Christian context - I don't see any point in arguing about the Incarnation for the purpose of the topic. The position of YEC within Christianity is far more important.


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Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 34 of 95 (820850)
09-28-2017 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
09-28-2017 5:02 AM


Re: Science or Theology
YEC purports to be scientific...though you have a point that the origins are in fact religious.

There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, there is no religion there, just history and the facts described include information about the physical world that can be used in scientific thinking. Where is the religion in any of that? There is none.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 7:51 AM Faith has responded
 Message 36 by Coyote, posted 09-28-2017 8:51 AM Faith has responded
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 09-28-2017 9:19 AM Faith has responded
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-28-2017 12:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
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Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 35 of 95 (820852)
09-28-2017 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
09-28-2017 7:37 AM


Re: Science or Theology
quote:

There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical,

If we're very generous that might start with Judges, but even that includes legends.

But in fact, YEC is mostly based in parts of the Bible that are myth, not history. Indeed, even the "creation" of "creationism" refers to a miraculous creation.

Taking myth literally seems to be pretty religious to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 7:37 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 37 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 9:07 AM PaulK has responded

    
Coyote
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Message 36 of 95 (820856)
09-28-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
09-28-2017 7:37 AM


Re: Science or Theology
There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, there is no religion there, just history and the facts described include information about the physical world that can be used in scientific thinking. Where is the religion in any of that? There is none.

Short of religious myth there is no way scientists or anyone else would ever come up with the idea of a young earth. The evidence simply does not lead to that explanation.

Creationists have to contort and misrepresent some of the evidence, ignore the rest of the evidence, and make up their own evidence in order to have "evidence" to support a YEC position.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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Faith
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Posts: 26756
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 37 of 95 (820859)
09-28-2017 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
09-28-2017 7:51 AM


Re: Science or Theology
Of course the creation of the universe was a miraculous event but what was created follows natural laws. None of it's myth anyway, it's all factually true history.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 7:51 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
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Posts: 26756
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 95 (820860)
09-28-2017 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Coyote
09-28-2017 8:51 AM


Re: Science or Theology
Short of religious myth there is no way scientists or anyone else would ever come up with the idea of a young earth. The evidence simply does not lead to that explanation.

It isn't religious myth, it's factual history.

As for whether science would have come up with the young earth I don't know, but since human intellect is fallen there's no reason why it should. God gave us the Bible because without it we are groping in the dark about all kinds of things.

Creationists have to contort and misrepresent some of the evidence, ignore the rest of the evidence, and make up their own evidence in order to have "evidence" to support a YEC position.

I haven't contorted anything in this discussion. The evidence is there for the young earth in everything I've said, as well as evidence that the Geological Time Scale is utterly false.


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PaulK
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Posts: 13374
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 39 of 95 (820861)
09-28-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
09-28-2017 9:07 AM


Re: Science or Theology
quote:

Of course the creation of the universe was a miraculous event but what was created follows natural laws.

You're forgetting about the creation of the various "kinds" of life.

quote:

None of it's myth anyway, it's all factually true history.

And the basis of that claim is ?


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RAZD
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Posts: 19320
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 40 of 95 (820862)
09-28-2017 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
09-28-2017 7:37 AM


redefinition of cult for this thread
There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, ...

Correction: claimed to be historical, as part of the religious belief.

From the Urban Dictionary I found several definitions of cult that are appropriate for this thread:

quote:
First:

A group, often times though not always religious or spiritual in nature, that is led by a single or small group of leader(s).

Members are often recruited or by some means persuaded to join, rarely if ever knowing how destructive and harmful a cult can be -- rarely knowing that it IS a cult. Though they usual come off as being generous, caring and in the best interests of their members, cults are inherently based on furthering the desires of cult leaders.

Cult leaders commonly use thought reform or "brainwashing", in conjunction with other methods, to slowly and deliberately reel in more control of said members. In many cases, members may eventually forsake their friends and family (non-members are viewed as "wrong" or "bad") and give up their careers, homes and/or money to the leader.

Second:

A cult is an organisation that has a set of beliefs in which the cult is viewed as being the one true organization, everyone else is wrong.

Usually they promote some kind of religious belief - usually made up by themself - but not always, some cults can be athiest, such as Amway.

Usually members have black-and-white thinking, and see their organization as being infaliable.

Members of a cult can be known as followers.

Followers will obay the cult leaders instructions and believe the propaganda without needing to verify it with much proof.

They are usually superstitious.

Cult members can be of average intelligence.

When people wonder about how a cult works, they usually focus on what the leader is doing. Usually the leader is just a charasmatic con-artist.

The real mechanics of how a cult works can be understood by focusing on the psychology of the follower.
The cult had over 1,000,000 members, each of whom, believed that the leader knew the secret of power, and by following him, and by buying all of his products, they too, would understand the secret.

Cult B had 1,000 members, and members believed they were with the right way because so many around them were following the crazy ideas, and the leader seemed so powerful.

Third:

a religious group which promotes worship of a human leader and devotion of one's life to a specific purpose.
Some have members practice certain rituals or follow a set of principle rules. The group usually believes its way is the only correct way to live life, and all non-members are doomed to some horrible fate if they cannot be persuaded to join..

Mormonism could easily be seen as a cult. Jesus is the savior, and unless you devote your life to following his teachings you will suffer a firey torture in Hell.


Yep that pretty well defines YECism.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 7:37 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 9:32 AM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 26756
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 95 (820865)
09-28-2017 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
09-28-2017 9:19 AM


Re: redefinition of cult for this thread
YEC is based on the parts of the Bible that are factually historical even though there are lots of unbelievers who refuse to accept that fact. We know it's factual, we know the Flood actually occurred in history, and that's because we know God inspired the Bible. Unbelievers can carry on all they like, we know it's the truth and it's the basis for the scientific thinking of YEC.

YEC is based on standard orthodox Protestant theology, there is nothing cultish about it, it's simple Christianity.

There's no point in bickering about these things. We aren't giving in and you aren't giving in. The Bible is our foundation, it's the truth, the parts YEC is based on are factual history, and we aren't giving it up no matter how much silly debunkery you throw at it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 43 by ringo, posted 09-28-2017 12:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
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PaulK
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Posts: 13374
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 42 of 95 (820867)
09-28-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
09-28-2017 9:32 AM


Re: redefinition of cult for this thread
quote:

YEC is based on the parts of the Bible that are factually historical even though there are lots of unbelievers who refuse to accept that fact. We know it's factual, we know the Flood actually occurred in history, and that's because we know God inspired the Bible.

In other words your belief in the historicity of those sections is just a religious belief (and one founded in dubious theology)

You really ought to learn to think things through instead of these knee jerk objections.

quote:

Unbelievers can carry on all they like, we know it's the truth and it's the basis for the scientific thinking of YEC

Or to be more accurate the falsehood of those myths - when taken literally - is the reason for the anti-scientific thinking of YEC.


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ringo
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Posts: 13987
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 43 of 95 (820875)
09-28-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
09-28-2017 9:32 AM


Re: redefinition of cult for this thread
Faith writes:

Unbelievers can carry on all they like, we know it's the truth....


That's practically the definition of religion right there.
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 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 9:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 19320
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 44 of 95 (820876)
09-28-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
09-28-2017 9:32 AM


Re: redefinition of cult for this thread
YEC is based on the belief that parts of the Bible that are factually historical even though there are lots of unbelievers who refuse to accept that fact belief. We know believe it's factual, we know believe the Flood actually occurred in history, and that's because we know believe God inspired the Bible. ...

There fixed it for you.

Claiming these beliefs are actual fact is only confirmation of the cult mindset of YECies.

If it were fact there would be all kinds of evidence that just does not exist. For instance, IF there were a world wide catastrophic flood, THEN there would be AT LEAST ONE (1) world wide continuous layer of the same type of sedimentary deposit. There isn't.

Even your rather pathetic attempts to shoe-horn actual evidence of old age and long term geological processes into an imaginary young world do not work, do not convince anyone not a YECie. As you keep finding out whenever you attempt to present your falsified concepts in the other threads.

YEC is based on standard orthodox Protestant theology, there is nothing cultish about it, it's simple Christianity.

Except that there are other standard orthodox Protestant sects that do not agree with a young earth and an actual flood. And Protestants are not the only Christians, there are many flavors of Christianity.

That make YECism an extremist subsect of Christianity as a whole, like the Branch Davidians. The main leaders are shysters (Ken Ham especially, building amusement parks to scam the gullible).

YECism fits the definitions for cults.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : world wide layer of sediment


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
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Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(3)
Message 45 of 95 (820878)
09-28-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
09-28-2017 7:37 AM


Re: Science or Theology
Faith writes:

There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, there is no religion there, just history and the facts described include information about the physical world that can be used in scientific thinking.

I disagree for two reasons. First, I have yet to see evidence that the Bible has a valid historical account. Do we have evidence for historical validity or is there a disagreement regarding that?

Also if YEC is not religious, why is there a disagreement concerning the interpretation of evidence? If evidence was so scientifically cut and dried, why does science disagree with creation science?

Faith writes:

Of course the creation of the universe was a miraculous event but what was created follows natural laws. None of it's myth anyway, it's all factually true history.

If it is factually true history, why is there not a consensus? What are the sticking points that prevent mainstream science from accepting creation science?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 47 by Coyote, posted 09-28-2017 12:36 PM Phat has responded

  
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