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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
jar
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Message 376 of 892 (819564)
09-12-2017 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
09-12-2017 6:34 PM


Millions of aternating layers Faith
How does your flood deposit a column of millions of layers of fine silt alternating with coarse silt.

Millions of layers Faith. And you only have at most 365 days to accomplish that miracle.

What is the model, method, process, procedure or mechanism that allows your magic flood to deposit a column of millions of layers of fine silt alternating with coarse silt.

Did I mention it has to deposit millions of alternating fine silt then coarse silt then fine silt layers?

You still have not presented the model, method, process, procedure or mechanism that allows your magic flood to deposit a column of millions of layers of fine silt alternating with coarse silt and if your flood cannot do that, it never happened.

Oh, and the fine silt is so fine it requires still water over an extended period of time.

Model, method, process, procedure, mechanism Faith.

When will you present the Model, method, process, procedure or mechanism Faith?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 377 of 892 (819566)
09-12-2017 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by jar
09-12-2017 7:15 PM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
First it would be nice if anyone would recognize evidence I've already given before bringing on some other issue. There can be evidence on both sides. although I really think the OE/ToE evidence is a bunch of sophistry, self-delusion and garbage.

I don't get this "silt" business since silt is a particular sediment that occurs in particular blocks and doesn't characterize all that much of the geo column. And where are you getting this ridiculous idea of millions of layers of silt anyway?

I'm aware that the strata were at least in some cases laid down in shallow layers, including those all of one sediment. What's the problem? There would have been a lot of wave action with rising and falling sea water, long long tides, and then when the water was deep and quiet enough precipitation of particles would occur as well.

What makes the "time period" explanation any better for such a water-borne scenario anyway?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
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Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 378 of 892 (819567)
09-12-2017 9:05 PM


More evidence against the OE/ToE in the strata
I've only touched on the evidence, against the ToE and for the Flood. I've spent most of my time {abe: at EvC} arguing on the basis of cross sections, particularly of the Grand Canyon, which show that the strata are remarkably uniform, straight, flat, with no erosion between the layers beyond the little that could easily be accounted for by water runoff after the strata were all in place. The cross sections all show that the strata WERE all in place before any real disturbance occurred to the stack, such as, say, the cutting of a humongous canyon three miles deep perhaps? The cutting of huge cliffs and more canyons in the Grand Staircase. Also they show that the strata curve in blocks over obstacles, which shouldn't happen if there are millions of years difference in age between them.

Everything I pointed out was clearly not taken into account by the makers of the OE and ToE explanation, or noticed by anybody else either for that matter. But then it was rationalized away by the most pathetically absurd scenarios. Oh that really IS erosion that occurred on the surface during millions of years. Can't have been of course but they'll say anything. Or so what's the big deal, why couldn't there have been hundreds of millions of years of relative calm before the massive disturbance of the cutting of the Grand Canyon. And so on and so ridiculously forth.

I also showed cross sections where the fault lines cut through the entire stack. Why would that be the case if they were laid down millions of years apart?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18972
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 379 of 892 (819568)
09-12-2017 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
09-12-2017 6:34 PM


objective empirical evidence vs denial of evidence + fantasy cherry picking
Yes you have varves and tree rings, but that just means there's evidence on both sides.

No, it means that there is objective empirical evidence that you can go to and verify -- touch and feel -- that show the earth is very very very old.

Your "evidence" is assertion and cherry-picking some aspects and complete denial of the rest, and the reality is in the rest ... you only use a fraction of the evidence and omit the rest because it is so inconvenient (ie falsifies) your position.

These are not remotely equivalently evidenced positions.

And all those facts do is push back the timing of the Flood by a very very small amount in comparison to the OE anyway.

Counted individual annual layers of Greenland Ice cores extended the minimum age of the earth to at least 107,000 years old (2017).

That's like a factor of 10, and I don't call that a small amount in any reasonable book.

Then we have a calcite vein in Nevada, Devil's Hole, that shows the earth is at least 567.7 thousand years old.

That's another factor of 5 ...

Dating mammillaries in the Grand Canyon shows it took over 14 million years to reach its current form, and the earth is at least 17 million years old

That's another factor of 34 ...

The Oklo Reactors, extinct natural nuclear reactors, show the earth is at least 1.74 billion years old

That's another factor of 100 ...

The radiometric dating methods are verified accurate by the counting layers data and by Uranium halos that take millions of years to form.

You have no idea what you are up against.

You don't have evidence, you have denial of evidence and pipe dream fantasies.

Not only does all the evidence show an extremely old earth, it shows that no fantasy flying carpet flood occurred in all the time covered.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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jar
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Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 380 of 892 (819569)
09-12-2017 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Faith
09-12-2017 8:51 PM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Faith writes:

I don't get this "silt" business since silt is a particular sediment that occurs in particular blocks and doesn't characterize all that much of the geo column. And where are you getting this ridiculous idea of millions of layers of silt anyway?

All this has been explained to you repeatedly Faith. The layers I was referencing are the Green River Varves.

Now it is up to you to explain how either of the Biblical Flood stories can explain millions of repeating layers of fine silt covered by coarser silt.

If you cannot provide the mechanism, model, method, process or procedure for the magic flood to do that then the best explanation is the current one of seasonal changes over millions of years.

Faith writes:

What makes the "time period" explanation any better for such a water-borne scenario anyway?

The fact that it is millions of layers Faith. Your flood was only a few years ago in reality and lasted only one year. There are only 365 days in a year and two tides a day which gives you a maximum of only 730 cycles for the best your picayune little flud could do.

But wait, there's more. From the size of the silt particles we can determine how long it would take for them to fall out of suspension and from the thickness of each layer we can calculate how long it took to create each layer and each layer took far more than a half day.

Sorry but that alone makes the flud a dud and an impossible explanation and also makes young earth an absurdity.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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(2)
Message 381 of 892 (819570)
09-12-2017 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Faith
09-12-2017 8:51 PM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
First it would be nice if anyone would recognize evidence I've already given before bringing on some other issue. There can be evidence on both sides. although I really think the OE/ToE evidence is a bunch of sophistry, self-delusion and garbage.

You are welcome to your opinion, but not to your own "alternate" facts.

It would be nice if you would recognize the mountains of objective empirical evidence you have been given instead of ignoring it again and again.

I don't get this "silt" business since silt is a particular sediment that occurs in particular blocks and doesn't characterize all that much of the geo column. And where are you getting this ridiculous idea of millions of layers of silt anyway?

quote:
The Green River Formation is an Eocene geologic formation that records the sedimentation in a group of intermountain lakes in three basins along the present-day Green River in Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah. The sediments are deposited in very fine layers, a dark layer during the growing season and a light-hue inorganic layer in the dry season. Each pair of layers is called a varve and represents one year. The sediments of the Green River Formation present a continuous record of six million years. The mean thickness of a varve here is 0.18 mm, with a minimum thickness of 0.014 mm and maximum of 9.8 mm.[1]

The lithology of the lake sediments is varied and includes sandstones, mudstones, siltstones, oil shales, coal beds, saline evaporite beds, and a variety of lacustrine limestones and dolostones. Volcanic ash layers within the various sediments from the then active Absaroka Volcanic field to the north in the vicinity of Yellowstone and the San Juan volcanic field to the southeast provide dateable horizons within the sediments.

The beds display a pronounced cyclicity, with the precession, obliquity, and eccentricity orbital components all clearly detectable. This enables the beds to be internally dated with a high degree of accuracy, and astrochronological dates agree very well with radiometric dates.[2]

Within the Green River Formation of southwest Wyoming in the area known as Fossil Lake, two distinct zones of very fine-grained lime muds are particularly noted for preserving a variety of complete and detailed fossils. These layers are an Eocene Lagerstätte, a rare place where conditions were right for a rich accumulation of undisturbed fossils. The most productive zone—called the split fish layer—consists of a series of laminated or varved lime muds about 6 ft (1.8 m) thick, which contains abundant fish and other fossils. These are easily split along the layers to reveal the fossils. This thin zone represents some 4000 years of deposition. The second fossil zone, the 18 inch layer, is an unlaminated layer about 18 in (46 cm) thick that also contains abundant detailed fossils, but is harder to work because it is not composed of fissile laminae.

The limestone matrix is so fine-grained that fossils include rare soft parts of complete insects and fallen leaves in spectacular detail. More than twenty-two orders of insects are represented in the Green River collection at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C., alone.

Fish fossils of Diplomystus and Knightia are found in Fossil Lake but not in Lake Gosiute. Only Lake Gosiute has fossils of catfish (Ictaluridae and Hypsidoridae) and suckers (Catostomidae). The catfish are found mostly in the deepest parts of the lake.[3][4]

The various fossil beds of the Green River Formation span a 5 million year period, dating to between 53.5 and 48.5 million years old.[5] This span of time includes the transition between the moist early Eocene climate and the slightly drier mid-Eocene. The climate was moist and mild enough to support crocodiles, which do not tolerate frost, and the lakes were surrounded by sycamore forests. As the lake configurations shifted, each Green River location is distinct in character and time. The lake system formed over underlying river deltas and shifted in the flat landscape with slight tectonic movements, receiving sediments from the Uinta highland and the Rocky Mountains to the east and north. The lagerstätten formed in anoxic conditions in the fine carbonate muds that formed in the lakebeds. Lack of oxygen slowed bacterial decomposition and kept scavengers away, so leaves of palms, ferns and sycamores, some showing the insect damage they had sustained during their growth, were covered with fine-grained sediment and preserved. Insects were preserved whole, even delicate wing membranes and spider spinnerets.

Vertebrates were preserved too, including the scutes of Borealosuchus, the crocodile that was an early clue to the mild Eocene climate of Western North America. Fish are common. The fossils of the herring-like Knightia, sometimes in dense layers, as if a school had wandered into anoxic water levels and were overcome, are familiar to fossil-lovers and are among the most commonly available fossils on the commercial market. There were two genera of indigenous freshwater stingray, Heliobatis and Asterotrygon. Approximately sixty vertebrate taxa in all have been found at Green River. Besides fishes they include at least eleven species of reptiles, and some birds and one armadillo-like mammal, Brachianodon westorum, with some scattered vertebrae of others, like the dog-sized Meniscotherium and Notharctus, one of the first primates. The earliest known bats (Icaronycteris index ,[6] and Onychonycteris finneyi[7]), already full-developed for flight, are found here. Even a snake, Boavus idelmani, found its way into a lake and was preserved in the mudstone.


That's the consilience with other data that makes the extreme old age of the earth such a solid, validated position.

Again, you have no idea of the amount of actual objective empirical evidence that is piled up against your ridiculous arguments.

I'm aware that the strata were at least in some cases laid down in shallow layers, including those all of one sediment. What's the problem? There would have been a lot of wave action with rising and falling sea water, long long tides, and then when the water was deep and quiet enough precipitation of particles would occur as well.

That does not create alternating layers of fine and coarse material -- any water motion with enough energy to carry coarse material would pick up all the fine material before depositing the coarse material, and if it doesn't have the energy to pick up the fine material then it can't carry the coarse material.

You have been told this before.

And when you pretend that this fantasy magic wave action produces 6,000,000 layers in a couple hundred days it just becomes a real hoot, because that is not "quiet enough precipitation of particles" ... 15,000 layers a day for 400 days? ROFLOL.

What makes the "time period" explanation any better for such a water-borne scenario anyway?

It's based on how things actually behave. It fits ALL the evidence. It's tested and validated. It's based on our best understanding of reality in virtually every field of science.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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jar
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Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 382 of 892 (819571)
09-12-2017 10:14 PM


What it takes ...
The important thing is to understand that just one location that was not flooded totally refutes the Biblical floods; just one single place or culture or technology or plant that was not flooded during the time the Biblical Flood happened is sufficient to dismiss the story as fable or folk tale.

Just one site that would take longer than 6000 years to create is sufficient to tally dismiss Young Earth as a fantasy.

It does not matter how much evidence is claimed to support Young Earth or one of the Biblical Flood stories, one site, one tree, one culture, one technology is all that is need to dismiss both as myth.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
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Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 892 (819573)
09-13-2017 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by jar
09-12-2017 9:26 PM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
What on earth do the Green River varves have to do with the Flood? Obviously your varves were not formed accvording to the timing you have in mind and you have no way of proving they were. You can have that hypothesis if you like, but the Flood would have wiped out the Green River so however they formed it was after the Flood.

Chalk it up for your side if you like. But I've given plenty of reason to chalk up a bunch of points on my side, stuff that undermines all the claims of great age. So you point your evidence of it on one side and I'll put mine on the other. You can't ignore my evidence just because you have some very iffy evidence for your claims.;


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 384 of 892 (819574)
09-13-2017 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by jar
09-12-2017 10:14 PM


Re: What it takes ...
No, one tree can be reinterpreted, varves timing can be reinterpreted We know the world was different before the FLood. The huge humber of fossils is evidence of incredible fertility and vitality. There were no harsh conditions, there were probably not even seasons as we know them, and in that case the timing of tree rings and varves both can't be explained by today's conditions. If the weather was perpetually warm and moist you could have had many tree rings in a year. And even after the Flood the fertility and vitality could have continued for centuries, just as people continued to live long lives, though progressively shorter.

There obviously weren't ANY locations that weren't flooded. Three miles of strata at a minimum is an enormous depth. If it flooded that deep in even one place it flooded that deep all over the earth. And besides, that idiotic six transgressions scenario shows that water had to have covered the earth even on that scheme.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 385 of 892 (819575)
09-13-2017 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by RAZD
09-12-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Chalk up your evidence on your side, but don't ignore mine, which is really a killer for the ToE and the OE if honestly faced.
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PaulK
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Posts: 13125
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 386 of 892 (819576)
09-13-2017 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
09-13-2017 12:44 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Faith, your "evidence" includes the assertion that trilobites show no signs of evolving into a new species. Given the fact that trilobites form a taxonomic Order with thousands of species and plenty of evidence for evolutionary change, how should we treat your assertion ?

Indeed, what does it say about you that you would even make such a claim ?


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 387 of 892 (819577)
09-13-2017 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by PaulK
09-13-2017 2:02 AM


trilobites are trilobites are trilobites
Faith, your "evidence" includes the assertion that trilobites show no signs of evolving into a new species. Given the fact that trilobites form a taxonomic Order with thousands of species and plenty of evidence for evolutionary change, how should we treat your assertion ?

As a breath of fresh air in the context of your ridiculously stupid crazy taxonomic system. LOOK at the trilobites, DUH. They are all trilobites, all of the same species, all the result of microevolution within the trilobite genome.

Indeed, what does it say about you that you would even make such a claim ?

Perhaps it says I'm one of the honest few here, and someone who can see reality where the ToE makes a confusing mess of it.

I've also made the case, as I'm sure you recall, for microevolution's necessarily decreasing genetic diversity (sometimes known as "information"} down to the hypothetical inevitable point that evolution must become impossible. I put all my theories and observations together, of course, so that if this is true, the trilobites are all trilobites, all variations within their own genome. It ought to be clear just from looking at them without any other argument, but the other argument does enhance the point. It all hangs together, and it's one of the many facts that destroy the absurd theory of the geo time scale, and without your geo time scale you have no meaningful "fossil order" at all.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 388 of 892 (819578)
09-13-2017 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by RAZD
09-12-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Just noticed this.

when you pretend that this fantasy magic wave action produces 6,000,000 layers in a couple hundred days

Eh whut? Whoever said these varves formed DURING THE FLOOD? What an utterly ridiculous idea. They had to have formed afterward, over the millennia SINCE the Flood.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13125
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 389 of 892 (819579)
09-13-2017 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
09-13-2017 2:22 AM


Re: trilobites are trilobites are trilobites
quote:

As a breath of fresh air in the context of your ridiculously stupid crazy taxonomic system. LOOK at the trilobites, DUH. They are all trilobites, all of the same species.

The people who have looked at trilobites say otherwise. Even looking at the variety of trilobite fossils without the detailed examinations made by the experts makes it plain that there is considerable variety.

Indeed, just look at the simple illustrations for the "fact sheets" on the left hand side of this page

quote:

Perhaps it says I'm one of the honest few here, and someone who can see reality where the ToE makes a confusing mess of it.

Because telling ignorant falsehoods is a sign of "honesty" and "seeing reality" ?

quote:

I've also made the case, as I'm sure you recall, for microevolution decreasing genetic diversity down to the hypothetical inevitable point that evolution must become impossible.

If you remember, you dismally failed to make that case and it was even shown that evolution could continue after reaching the point where it allegedly became impossible.

quote:

I put all my theories and observations together, of course, so that if this is true, the trilobites are all trilobites, all variations within their own genome.

Since you are almost certainly wrong that isn't much of an argument.

quote:

It hangs together, and it's one of the many facts that destroy the absurd theory of the geo time scale.

Using an assumption that is almost certainly false to prop up another assumption that is almost certainly false doesn't help build a solid case.

Really your argument comes down to boasting that you have special insights that nobody else can see. Even when those "insights" are obviously false. That isn't going to convince anyone with any sense.


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PaulK
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Posts: 13125
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(4)
Message 390 of 892 (819580)
09-13-2017 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Faith
09-13-2017 2:28 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
quote:

Eh whut? Whoever said these varves formed DURING THE FLOOD? What an utterly ridiculous idea.

So you are saying that the strata containing the varves, and the fossils within them were NOT formed by the Flood? That's an interesting admission.


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