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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
RAZD
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Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 391 of 858 (819582)
09-13-2017 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by jar
09-12-2017 10:14 PM


Re: What it takes ...
The important thing is to understand that just one location that was not flooded totally refutes the Biblical floods; just one single place or culture or technology or plant that was not flooded during the time the Biblical Flood happened is sufficient to dismiss the story as fable or folk tale.

Just one site that would take longer than 6000 years to create is sufficient to tally dismiss Young Earth as a fantasy.

It does not matter how much evidence is claimed to support Young Earth or one of the Biblical Flood stories, one site, one tree, one culture, one technology is all that is need to dismiss both as myth.

Shulman's tree on top of the Sierra Nevadas with a minimum germination date of 3051 BCE makes it 5,067 years old, dead trees with roots still in the ground have over 7,000 annual growth rings, dendrochronology from the Bristlecone Pines shows the earth is at least 8,307 years old (in 2017).

For starters.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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Pressie
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Posts: 1770
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 392 of 858 (819583)
09-13-2017 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Faith
09-12-2017 8:51 PM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
This one is really, really funny
Faith writes:

I don't get this "silt" business since silt is a particular sediment that occurs in particular blocks and doesn't characterize all that much of the geo column

So, you mean that Geologists don't know what silt is?

I don't think that Faith has ever logged a Karoo borehole...

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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 Message 377 by Faith, posted 09-12-2017 8:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
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Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 393 of 858 (819584)
09-13-2017 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
09-13-2017 12:36 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
And the rabid denial begins ...

... You can't ignore my evidence just because you have some very iffy evidence for your claims.;

If it is so iffy faith, how do you explain all the age measuring systems agreeing with one another time after time?

Why does all the evidence of age agree with an old earth and none of the evidence of age supports a young earth?

'Splain it to me.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 394 of 858 (819585)
09-13-2017 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Faith
09-13-2017 12:42 AM


Re: What it takes ...
No, one tree can be reinterpreted, varves timing can be reinterpreted ...

Multiple trees from multiple locations agree time after time after time.
Varves agree with the trees. Several cores with the same results.
Ice cores agree with the varves. Several cores with the same results.

You're not talking about reinterpreting, you're talking about denial of the evidence.

... We know the world was different before the FLood. ...

There is no record of different climate in the tree record, in the varve record, in the ice core record ... so no, we do not know the world was different before the flood, and in fact the same evidence shows there was no flood.

There obviously weren't ANY locations that weren't flooded....

The peaks of the Sierra Nevada range show no evidence of flood for over 8,000 years.

And besides, that idiotic six transgressions scenario shows that water had to have covered the earth even on that scheme.

And the rabid denial continues.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 395 of 858 (819586)
09-13-2017 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
09-13-2017 12:44 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Chalk up your evidence on your side, but don't ignore mine, which is really a killer for the ToE and the OE if honestly faced.

I don't have to ignore evidence that does not exist. Honestly faith, you have nothing but fantasy and rabid denial.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 12:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:56 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 396 of 858 (819587)
09-13-2017 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Faith
09-13-2017 2:28 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Eh whut? Whoever said these varves formed DURING THE FLOOD? What an utterly ridiculous idea. They had to have formed afterward, over the millennia SINCE the Flood.

Okay so now you abandoned your argument about waves and tides forming them. For now.

So, Faith, how do the 6 million layers form in the last 4000 to 5000 years or so ... unnoticed by the people living there?

What's the magic process to make those layers faith? That's over 1200 layers per year, 100 layers per month, 3 layers per day ... what is it faith?

And while you are attempting to shoehorn that into your fantasy, explain why they show the "periodic effects of pronounced cyclicity, with the precession, obliquity, and eccentricity orbital components all clearly detectable. This enables the beds to be internally dated with a high degree of accuracy, and astrochronological dates agree very well with radiometric dates" ... how do you explain that faith?

You have no idea of the layers and layers of evidence that is against your delusional fantasy.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : link


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 2:28 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:32 AM RAZD has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 397 of 858 (819588)
09-13-2017 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
09-13-2017 12:36 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Faith writes:

What on earth do the Green River varves have to do with the Flood? Obviously your varves were not formed accvording to the timing you have in mind and you have no way of proving they were. You can have that hypothesis if you like, but the Flood would have wiped out the Green River so however they formed it was after the Flood.

Too funny. Thank you for showing that the Earth is Old and that the Biblical Flood never happened.

You really don't see how utterly absurd your posts are if you are trying to support either the Biblical Flood or Young Earth do you?

It would be laughable if you were really trying to be funny but I fear you aren't.

The Green River Varves are annual cycles. We can see the same thing happening at other sites today. Annual cycles are real and they do leave evidence. If what you posted were true and the Green River Varves were formed after the flud then the flud was at least six million years ago.

Faith writes:

Chalk it up for your side if you like. But I've given plenty of reason to chalk up a bunch of points on my side, stuff that undermines all the claims of great age. So you point your evidence of it on one side and I'll put mine on the other. You can't ignore my evidence just because you have some very iffy evidence for your claims.;

No Faith, the only evidence you have ever presented is the weak evidence that there are two Bible stories that claim there was a world-wide flood and those accounts are anonymous, contradictory, mutually exclusive and disproved by reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 12:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 398 of 858 (819589)
09-13-2017 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Faith
09-13-2017 12:42 AM


Re: What it takes ...
Faith writes:

We know the world was different before the FLood.

Bullshit Faith.

Once again reality says you are just telling Porkies.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 12:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 399 of 858 (819590)
09-13-2017 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by RAZD
09-13-2017 7:05 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Faith writes:

Eh whut? Whoever said these varves formed DURING THE FLOOD? What an utterly ridiculous idea. They had to have formed afterward, over the millennia SINCE the Flood.

Okay so now you abandoned your argument about waves and tides forming them. For now.

RAZD, I HAVE NEVER EVER said the varves formed DURING THE FLOOD. I say only that the STRATA that make up the GEOLOGICAL COLUMN, on which the GEOLOGICAL TIME SCALE is based, were formed in the Flood, by waves and tides and precipitation.

So, Faith, how do the 6 million layers form in the last 4000 to 5000 years or so ... unnoticed by the people living there?

What on earth are you talking about? I take the position that the varves support the Old Earth as usually presented, and don't try to address that particular issue except to conjecture that they are not a yearly phenomenon but occur much more frequently. Nevertheless I put it in the column for your side because I can't prove it. But from the Flood perspective, which I prove by many other means, they had to have formed after it. Don't throw this opaque pseudoproblem at me, spell it out if it matters so much to you.

What's the magic process to make those layers faith? That's over 1200 layers per year, 100 layers per month, 3 layers per day ... what is it faith?

See above.

And while you are attempting to shoehorn that into your fantasy, explain why they show the "periodic effects of pronounced cyclicity, with the precession, obliquity, and eccentricity orbital components all clearly detectable. This enables the beds to be internally dated with a high degree of accuracy, and astrochronological dates agree very well with radiometric dates" ... how do you explain that faith?

You have no idea of the layers and layers of evidence that is against your delusional fantasy.

The arguments I've given are quite solid. You can't answer an argument about one thing with an argument about another. Address MY arguments if you can instead of changing the subject. I've given what, four or five arguments that should be chalked up to my side. You can have the varves and the tree rings on your side until further evidence is available to explain them better.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by RAZD, posted 09-13-2017 7:05 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 400 of 858 (819591)
09-13-2017 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
09-13-2017 12:36 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Missed this on the first answer:

... You can have that hypothesis if you like, but the Flood would have wiped out the Green River so however they formed it was after the Flood.

And the varves in Lake Suigetsu and Cariaco Basin would also have been wiped out, and they extend linked to today for over 50,000 years of annual deposits, the one verifying the other.

Keep trying faith, it is so entertaining to watch the dance of denial.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 12:36 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:38 AM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 401 of 858 (819592)
09-13-2017 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by RAZD
09-13-2017 7:33 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
As I said, put varves on your side. I do not have an answer and don't normally attempt one except to suppose they had to have occurred far more frequently than you allow.

But all you are doing is changing the subject and distracting from my good arguments against the OE/ToE. If you can't answer those then chalk them up to my side.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 402 of 858 (819593)
09-13-2017 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by RAZD
09-13-2017 6:58 AM


Again, the Geo Column shows the absurdity of the OE/ToE
I don't have to ignore evidence that does not exist. Honestly faith, you have nothing but fantasy and rabid denial.

Hardly. Funny how you assert that over and over and don't even give one reason to think anything I've said is false. You are the one in denial ignoring my evidence, which is quite extensive and quite clear. The strata were all laid down continuously before there was any appreciable erosion or other disturbance; this is evidences in the Grand Canyon through the entire depth of the geological column and it proves the falseness of the supposed "time periods" of millions of years.

The trilobite and coelacanth fossils further support my argument by showing only microevolutionary changes on the typical order of varieties and races over what the standard theory says are hundreds of millions of years. These are the only fossils that occur in so many different strata up the geological column and they do not support the OE/ToE at all, which is fabricated out of the great "leaps" supposed between major groups such as reptiles and mammals. They support ordinary microevolution of the sort we see happening before our eyes in our own human time frame. They show millions of years to be ridiculous.

And there is also the absurdity of associating a time period with a huge flat sedimentary rock, let alone ALL the time periods. The very idea of a time period so clearly demarcated from others is absurd to begin with, and having them marked by sedimentary deposits is eyerolling absurdity.

And the other absurdity of trying to claim the Geoloigical Column is continuing in lakebeds and seafloor. I've explained this sufficiently in my previous post on this subject.

So what is that, four separate arguments based on observable facts that show millions of years to be absurd and rapid deposition to be the only reasonable interpretation of the actual form of the strata.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 403 of 858 (819594)
09-13-2017 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Stile
09-12-2017 10:00 AM


Re: No lies, just a difference of context
Stile writes:

Percy's context (in this statement, not as a person in general) revolves around the "honest interpretation of reality."

Usually when I say Faith is lying and dishonest it involves her attempts to falsely justify her behavior. For example, Faith is often lying and dishonest about her claims that she has already proved her point somewhere earlier in the thread or in some other thread where she abandoned discussion. She is also often lying and dishonest in characterizing other thread participants, picking fights with them by accusing them of being insulting or condescending or too technical or just plain too infuriating. She is also often lying and dishonest when she is trying to avoid discussion, such as earlier in this thread when she said "I"m not interested in this thread..." (Message 266), despite having already posted a number of messages discussing the flood.

It's different when I characterize Faith's views on geology and evolution and science in general. In that context I generally say she is mistaken and willfully ignorant.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Stile, posted 09-12-2017 10:00 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 404 of 858 (819595)
09-13-2017 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Faith
09-13-2017 7:56 AM


Re: Again, the Geo Column shows the absurdity of the OE/ToE
Hardly. Funny how you assert that over and over and don't even give one reason to think anything I've said is false. ...

Except that I have, you just ignore it.

See Age of Grand Canyon and Cave Speleothems and If Caused By Flood Drainage Why is the Grand Canyon Where It IS? for examples of Grand Canyon geology.

Also review Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?

Then we could go back to the Grand Canyon in stages thread by Jar ... discontinuities between layers prove your thesis is false. And yes we can prove falsehoods.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9739
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 405 of 858 (819596)
09-13-2017 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by Percy
09-13-2017 8:06 AM


Back To The Definition Of Evidence
To her credit, she is EvC Forums lone representative of Biblical Creationism. The others come and go, but Faith is of this writing our second most prolific poster only to jar.

I am still waiting for everyone to clarify what exactly evidence is.

I figure that there is a scientific definition, which I can easily look up and then an alternative facts explanation for the other side.

Perhaps that definition would be something along the lines of subjectivity.

Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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