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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 871 of 894 (820476)
09-21-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 869 by Aussie
09-20-2017 4:45 PM


Learning How Others Think
Aussie writes:

Are you really the only one who can't see this sad pattern, Faith? These are all from the same six sentence post!

I believe that she sees the pattern, Aussie---she just chooses to ignore the argument that her opponents attempt to frame.
Please find the humility to learn something from someone who knows more than you.
She likely believes that God knows more than secular science and certainly more than any atheist or leftist. She likely knows that her knowledge is limited, though growing and that it comes from a belief paradigm versus secular scientific methods. She is only attempting to frame Gods master plan and method and feels(she would say knows)...that the majority of secular science is deceived and even clueless of her assumptions.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by Aussie, posted 09-20-2017 4:45 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 872 by JonF, posted 09-21-2017 12:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 873 by edge, posted 09-21-2017 1:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 874 by Aussie, posted 09-21-2017 2:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 875 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2017 2:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3969
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 872 of 894 (820486)
09-21-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Phat
09-21-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Learning How Others Think
She likely knows that her knowledge is limited

She definitely does not know that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 873 of 894 (820495)
09-21-2017 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Phat
09-21-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Learning How Others Think
She likely believes that God knows more than secular science and certainly more than any atheist or leftist.

Then she speaks for God?

It is curious how this god does as YEC wishes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 122
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 874 of 894 (820496)
09-21-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Phat
09-21-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Learning How Others Think
Phat says:

She likely believes that God knows more than secular science and certainly more than any atheist or leftist. She likely knows that her knowledge is limited, though growing and that it comes from a belief paradigm versus secular scientific methods. She is only attempting to frame Gods master plan and method and feels(she would say knows)...that the majority of secular science is deceived and even clueless of her assumptions.

I understand you are trying hard to see the best in your fellow believer Phat, but I am more cynical in my view toward her. Faith brings to my mind a picture of a little bat hanging in the damp darkness from the ceiling of a tiny cave, telling all the other animals running around in the sunshine outside that they have everything upside down, and that they absolutely all needed to come live in the cave with her.

She will not be convinced there is sunlight outside. Despite empassioned pleadings from other well-meaning and beautiful humans, she harbors no quarter for those with differing viewpoints to her own. God Himself must conform to the way SHE thinks He needs to be. Everything Faith says about God must be true, and it is hard for her to let differences of opinion, however subtle, slide by gracefully and with honor. There is no expertise; no life dedicated to the aquisition of a specific knowlegde area; not in physics, astronomy, biology, geology, paleontology, that she will not dismiss with a single haughty guffaw, proclaiming her knowledge, her insight, her perch on her comfy armchair to be superior to their years of hard work and field research.

Her's is the pride of Lucifer. She will simply not allow herself to submit to any authority, in any field, in any way, unless it reaffirms her rightness at any cost.

There is more I could say but she is already going to accuse me of assassinating her character, although she likely did that herself years ago. I mean, she defended the killing of children and babies in the name of her religion to me personally, and in ALL CAPS, last year here in this forum. why should we expect her to listen to a mere geologist?

ADMIN: I will retract this with an apology if you feel it crosses forum guidelines, although I can't see that it is possibly off topic at this point.

Edited by Aussie, : grammar


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 875 of 894 (820498)
09-21-2017 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Phat
09-21-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Learning How Others Think
quote:

She likely believes that God knows more than secular science and certainly more than any atheist or leftist

Which is an utter irrelevance. God is not taking part in the discussions.

quote:

She likely knows that her knowledge is limited, though growing and that it comes from a belief paradigm versus secular scientific methods.

She doesn't seem to care about that. Remember that she assumed that she couldn't be wrong about a map she couldn't read properly. Despite the fact that any rational person would have realised that she almost certainly was wrong.

quote:

She is only attempting to frame Gods master plan and method and feels(she would say knows)...that the majority of secular science is deceived and even clueless of her assumptions.

In other words she feels that her fantasies are on a level with God's Word. That's a pretty damning accusation of hubris right there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 876 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 3:27 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 876 of 894 (820507)
09-21-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 875 by PaulK
09-21-2017 2:39 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
I doubt I felt I "couldn't be wrong" about the map, I simply read it the way I read it as anyone would do, until I became aware of lines I hadn't been able to see before.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2017 2:39 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 877 by edge, posted 09-21-2017 7:30 PM Faith has responded
 Message 882 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2017 2:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 877 of 894 (820513)
09-21-2017 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by Faith
09-21-2017 3:27 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
I doubt I felt I "couldn't be wrong" about the map, I simply read it the way I read it as anyone would do, until I became aware of lines I hadn't been able to see before.

In that case, were I you, I'd take it as a sign that I should dial back my certainty a few notches.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 3:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 10:27 PM edge has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 878 of 894 (820515)
09-21-2017 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 877 by edge
09-21-2017 7:30 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
I don't recall any certainty, just interpreting the map according to what I saw. And for the record I'm not certain about a lot of my interpretations, but when I get back the usual slap in the face for anything I say before I've had a chance to work on it a while and see how far I can take it I'm sure I go on defending it anyway, I have to until I've worked it through. I suppose a debate forum isn't the best place for working out one's thoughts, but it has been very helpful for me for that purpose: I do adjust my theories according to what I get back. At the moment I'm on a strike against some really offensive personal comments. Even though this is treated as my modus operandi, it isn't, it's a new thing. Oh sure I do it myself, and you all can point that out too, but I'm not taking the really egregious stuff that's been thrown at me recently, if I miss whole posts for that reason they are no loss to me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 877 by edge, posted 09-21-2017 7:30 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 879 by Coyote, posted 09-21-2017 10:33 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 880 by edge, posted 09-21-2017 10:45 PM Faith has responded
 Message 883 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2017 7:11 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 884 by Percy, posted 09-22-2017 8:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6012
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 879 of 894 (820516)
09-21-2017 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 878 by Faith
09-21-2017 10:27 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
I do adjust my theories according to what I get back.

Actually, you do not have "theories" in the way scientists use that term.

A theory in science is the single best explanation for a given set of facts, it is not contradicted by any relevant facts, and it makes successful predictions. Normally it has also withstood the test of time.

Your "theories" do not explain all relevant facts and are contradicted by a number of relevant facts.

It might be more appropriate to use the term "model." But a model is normally adjusted to account for contrary facts, or discarded if it can't account for them. A model is more of a thought experiment in many ways.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 10:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 880 of 894 (820517)
09-21-2017 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 878 by Faith
09-21-2017 10:27 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
I don't recall any certainty, just interpreting the map according to what I saw.

I'm not talking about just the map, I mean practically every post that you write. For instance does this statement project any certainty?

What's physically impossible is the absurd idea that the GU is the root of a former mountain range that grew up and then eroded down to flatness before the strata started building above it.

Or this statement:

Or that strata would lay themselves down in a mounded form a mile deep. Or that the Colorado River cut the Grand Canyon.

Or this one:

Or that a whole scenario of a "time period" could have existed where there now is only a vast flat slab of sedimentary rock, let alone dozens of them.

I'd say that they were submitted by someone with little knowledge, less tolarance and a huge dose of certainty.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 10:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 10:57 PM edge has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 881 of 894 (820518)
09-21-2017 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 880 by edge
09-21-2017 10:45 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
Yes I AM certain about those things, that's quite true.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by edge, posted 09-21-2017 10:45 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 885 by edge, posted 09-22-2017 10:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 882 of 894 (820521)
09-22-2017 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 876 by Faith
09-21-2017 3:27 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
quote:

I doubt I felt I "couldn't be wrong" about the map, I simply read it the way I read it as anyone would do, until I became aware of lines I hadn't been able to see before.

You expressed a lot of certainty in spite of very strong reasons to doubt your conclusion. You certainly accused me of being unable to read a map when I corrected you Message 93. And I don't think I would have read the map as you did without a lot more checks - I made at least two after the fact that falsified your idea.

And if I remember correctly you admitted to being able to see some of the line outlining the present-day continent. Message 108

Edited by PaulK, : Added supporting links to posts


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 3:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 883 of 894 (820527)
09-22-2017 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 878 by Faith
09-21-2017 10:27 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
In the name of understanding how others think, please explain this

quote:

I'm not certain about a lot of my interpretations, but when I get back the usual slap in the face for anything I say before I've had a chance to work on it a while and see how far I can take it I'm sure I go on defending it anyway, I have to until I've worked it through

If you present a half-baked idea on a debate site - especially if yo do so,without making it clear that it is preliminary and speculative - then surely it will come in for heavy criticism. But to call that a "slap in the face" seems extreme, to say the least.

quote:

At the moment I'm on a strike against some really offensive personal comments. Even though this is treated as my modus operandi, it isn't, it's a new thing. Oh sure I do it myself, and you all can point that out too, but I'm not taking the really egregious stuff that's been thrown at me recently, if I miss whole posts for that reason they are no loss to me.

I very much doubt that you have had anything that is any worse than you dish out. Even before we take the question of justification into account.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 10:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16027
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 884 of 894 (820529)
09-22-2017 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 878 by Faith
09-21-2017 10:27 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
Faith writes:

I don't recall any certainty, just interpreting the map according to what I saw.

You don't recall any certainty? Either you've got a very bad memory or you're lying. Just look at Message 93 - it's full of certainty. Then there's your statement in Message 101 where you make your errors explicit:

Faith in Message 101 writes:

If I saw an error I'd admit it, so obviously I don't see an error. Do you ever consider such a possibility or is it so important to you to accuse me of moral faults that just never enters your mind?

What YOU don't get is that that is NOT the California coast as we know it today. California had not been built up, there really wasn't much of California or the west coast at all yet, it WAS under deep ocean. All the states today to which the Chinle Formation belongs were UNDER WATER. However, as I see on the next page the volcanoes appear to be more to the west of the Rockies than in the Rockies. Which doesn't help matters anyway: there is still no place for the dinosaurs, whether because of deep water or volcanoes. All this is going on during the shifting of the continents after the break-up of Pangaea.

(And most likely the last phases of the Flood.)

You never did admit error.

And for the record I'm not certain about a lot of my interpretations, but when I get back the usual slap in the face for anything I say before I've had a chance to work on it a while and see how far I can take it I'm sure I go on defending it anyway, I have to until I've worked it through.

You're engaged in dissembling again. You never present your ideas as works in progress. For you they are facts until in rare instances the lightbulb goes on and you realize you're wrong.

I suppose a debate forum isn't the best place for working out one's thoughts, but it has been very helpful for me for that purpose: I do adjust my theories according to what I get back.

You only "adjust your theories" when forced to. For the most part you ignore almost all feedback. You don't respond to most messages, most of your messages are repetitions of prior declarations of what you believe, and many of your messages are one-liners, dismissive or completely free of content. Who can forget the series of, "Sorry, I disagree," messages?

At the moment I'm on a strike against some really offensive personal comments.

Yes, that's what you do, behave badly and when called on it deem them "offensive personal comments" which in your mind somehow justifies ignoring the messages and the information they contain. It's how you maintain your ignorance.

Even though this is treated as my modus operandi, it isn't, it's a new thing.

This is a lie, too. If you go back to your earliest threads in 2005 when you began participation in earnest you'll see that you were ignoring most messages then, too. In Objections to Evo-Timeframe Deposition of Strata you replied to about 50% of messages. In Is Evolutionist Disparagement of Creationism Justified? you again responded to about 50% of messages. In Who to believe , Ham or Ross? it was again about 50%. Need I go on?

...if I miss whole posts for that reason they are no loss to me.

Most of the posts that you ignore contain a great deal of information. The more information and explanation a post contains, the more likely it is you'll ignore it. The more detailed or complicated a post is, the more likely it is you'll ignore it. The more "white" a post contains, the more likely it is you'll ignore it. I'm including your one-liner replies as ignoring messages.

There was little point in you posting this self-serving self-justifying message with its concoctions out of whole cloth. The facts are there for anyone to check. You haven't participated in good faith from your very beginning here, and it's only gotten worse as time goes on.

Why don't you go back through this thread and begin replying to all the messages you've ignored? And don't forget the messages where you replied with one-liners that basically said nothing - you should post new replies to those messages.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 10:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 885 of 894 (820569)
09-22-2017 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 881 by Faith
09-21-2017 10:57 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
Yes I AM certain about those things, that's quite true.

You couldn't possibly be wrong?

When did you realize that you are infallible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 10:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 886 by JonF, posted 09-23-2017 9:17 AM edge has not yet responded
 Message 887 by ringo, posted 09-23-2017 11:55 AM edge has not yet responded

  
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