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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
JonF
Member
Posts: 4000
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 886 of 894 (820574)
09-23-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by edge
09-22-2017 10:24 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
That was years ago.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by edge, posted 09-22-2017 10:24 PM edge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 887 of 894 (820580)
09-23-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by edge
09-22-2017 10:24 PM


Re: Learning How Others Think
edge writes:

When did you realize that you are infallible?


The Bible is infallible. Therefore, anybody who claims to believe the Bible is infallible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by edge, posted 09-22-2017 10:24 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10239
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 888 of 894 (820582)
09-23-2017 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
08-31-2017 11:08 PM


Re: EvC goes bonkers again
Faith writes:

God inspired the written Word because we haven't the ability-- or the willingness --to understand the meaning of His Creation, which points to Him.

DWise1 writes:

So just what did GOD HIMSELF say?
What did Man say?

This frames the whole controversy over God lying versus mans recording of scripture. jar seems to always claim that God lied and the serpent told the truth, which in my mind is arguably blasphemous. Many obvious questions arise between Biblical Literalists and scholarly (secular) literalists over this.

The first question would be whether God exists apart from being a character in a story. Faith and I believe that he does. jar is a Creedal Christian who reads the stories as written, with a bit of Jewish Chutspah from his upbringing as an Episcopal student taught to always question everything and to separate belief from fact and reality. Ringo claims to be an atheist with no axes to grind, Assuming that GOD does in fact exist, the next question would be Gods relationship with human critters throughout History. In a topic titled Evidence Of The Flood the initial premise was that Harvey the Hawk was a bit of evidence of probable interaction and cooperation of animals and humans. Reality suggests that it would be quite a chore to gather up two of every animal from all corners of the planet...unless they plodded, crawled, and flew down to the middle east to get on the boat! The argument can be made that a supernatural God can do anything he wants in any way that He chooses, but the response would be "well then why a flood"? Sounds a bit unnecessary and simplistic for an omnipotent Creator. And why punish the animals for human rebellion and self-will?

jar,to Faith writes:

It's only Biblical Christians like you that disagree with what God said and blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

Which again brings up the question as to Who actually said it and what it meant. This is where faith and I differ...I'm not as liberal as jar nor as conservative as Faith. I can acknowledge the arguments that humans wrote the Bible...but I would likely believe that God inspired it. My jury is still out on how to reconcile apparent contradictions---such as jars point that God lied, according to the stories. Some say God cannot lie, for what He says is always truth and what possible need would God have for lying?

Also, I challenge the accusation that Faith is blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

Faith,replying to Dr.A writes:

Sorry, strata and fossils are THE evidence for the Flood, despite EvCers' insistence on the utterly ridiculous delusional time period argument. Common sense ought to be enough to show both the impossibility of that explanation and the obvious reasonableness of the Flood explanation.

If common sense were truly common, everyone would see the reasoning. The fact that they don't is not because they are against religion...it is because they have been trained to read and interpret evidence. I'm not sure why you see it a different way unless you assume that the Flood MUST have happened and then try and construct evidence which supports it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 08-31-2017 11:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 889 by edge, posted 09-23-2017 9:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 889 of 894 (820591)
09-23-2017 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 888 by Phat
09-23-2017 2:23 PM


Re: EvC goes bonkers again
This frames the whole controversy over God lying versus mans recording of scripture. jar seems to always claim that God lied and the serpent told the truth, which in my mind is arguably blasphemous. Many obvious questions arise between Biblical Literalists and scholarly (secular) literalists over this.

(snip)...


I think you are missing the point. I believe that jar is making use of a strawman argument as a rhetorical tool to make a point.

The point is that IF YEC is correct, then it is necessry for God to be a liar. Jar goes further in saying that if the universe is also the work of God, it disagrees with the Bible, so which do you believe? One of the two must be fallacious.

In effect, YEC belief CAUSES God to be a liar. It is a logical conclusion.

Consequently, it is possible to judge Faith (and other militant adherents to YEC) as blasphemous.

The only way out of this is to deny the evidence provided in the works of God.

Frankly, I don't think jar cares a hoot about whether God is a liar or not. The point is that YECs have some explaining to do.

ABE: On the other hand, I think that the earth may be a bit tricky, but I do not think that it lies.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Phat, posted 09-23-2017 2:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by NoNukes, posted 09-24-2017 12:11 AM edge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10123
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 890 of 894 (820594)
09-24-2017 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by edge
09-23-2017 9:08 PM


Re: EvC goes bonkers again
"The only way out of this is to deny the evidence provided in the works of God."

We've already seen this. Faith calls some of what appears to be evidence an illusion.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by edge, posted 09-23-2017 9:08 PM edge has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19309
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 891 of 894 (820615)
09-24-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Faith
09-13-2017 7:03 PM


Re: A charming fat fish proves radiometic dating is false cuz the varves aren't annual
Getting no reply from Faith to Message 868 -- more evidence that she just ignores posts that refute her arguments.

Well here's more ... it was even on Fox News:

quote:
Scientists discover 60 ancient shipwrecks in the Black Sea

In early 2015, a team of scientists from the United Kingdom, Bulgaria, Sweden, the United States and Greece set off to investigate the effects of climate change and the impact of sea level changes in the Black Sea since the end of the Earth’s last glacial cycle 12,000 years ago.

What they discovered by chance during their studies was more than they could have ever imagined: 60 shipwrecks dating back 2,500 years, including artifacts from the Byzantine Era, the Middle Ages and the Ottoman Empire.

This week, after nearly three years at sea, the scientists who participated in the Black Sea Maritime Archaeology Project docked their research vessel in the port of Burgas, Bulgaria, and displayed dramatic 3-D printed replicas of those shipwrecks, which represent more than a thousand years of maritime history.


quote:
Ghostly graveyard of 60 perfectly preserved ancient shipwrecks is found by climate scientists at the bottom of the Black Sea

Dozens of perfectly preserved ancient shipwrecks have been found at the bottom of the Black Sea.

A total of 60 wrecks were discovered dating back as far as 2,500 years, including galleys from the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires.

Scientists stumbled upon the graveyard while using underwater robots to survey the effects of climate change along the Bulgarian coast.

Because the Black Sea contains almost no light or oxygen, little life can survive, meaning the wrecks are in excellent condition.

Researchers say their discovery is 'truly unrivalled'. Many of the ships have features that are only known from drawings or written description but never seen until now.

Carvings in the wood of some ships have remained intact for centuries, while well-preserved rope was found aboard one 2,000-year-old Roman vessel.

The researchers had discovered over 40 wrecks across two previous expeditions, but during their latest trip, which returned this month, they uncovered more than 20 new sites, including a 2,000-year-old Roman galley (pictured)


Of particular interest for Faith is the levels of silty sediment on and around the ships, which are in various degrees of being buried ... without rotting and without being flattened.

Compare this to the Green River varves gradually covering corpses on the bottom.

... Fossils of big fat fish for instance, much bigger than any supposedly annual pair of varves could cover up to their knees as it were. I pondered this for half a second and laughed out loud. These fish all by themselves prove that the varve pairs are not annual because the fish would have rotted away or been eaten within days, weeks or months of being "buried" by this minuscule amount of sediment. ...
... Well, the fish fossils prove they aren't. ...

These ships are much bigger than the annual deposition of sediment could cover, even 2000 years of annual deposits have not covered them yet, but they are still preserved in good condition ... by the anoxic conditions at the bottom of the black sea.

But they have certainly been buried enough to cover a fish corpse.

This should put "paid" to her erroneous conclusion that fat fish proved the layers weren't annual and her further leap of faith conclusion that it meant radiometric dating was wrong.

This evidence is "proof positive" that organic material can last on the bottom under anoxic conditions for thousands of years, gradually become buried by the slow rain of small particles over millennia, and preserved for future discovery.

... I pondered this for half a second and laughed out loud. ...

It is said that he who laughs last laughs best.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : db

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10123
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 892 of 894 (820620)
09-24-2017 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 819 by Rrhain
09-17-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
"If it is undetectable, then it didn't happen."

I wonder what the meaning of such a statement is. Can you detect life on an exoplanet? Since you cannot, should we assume that no life exists on any of them?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Rrhain, posted 09-17-2017 4:29 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 893 by Percy, posted 09-24-2017 10:04 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 894 by Rrhain, posted 09-25-2017 1:31 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16325
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 893 of 894 (820630)
09-24-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 892 by NoNukes
09-24-2017 7:39 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
I think Rrhain would probably draw a distinction between the meaning of “undetectable” he intended and that was discernible from context (not detectable by any means ever), and the meaning of “undetectable” you’re using (not detectable by us at the current time).

—Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by NoNukes, posted 09-24-2017 7:39 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6217
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 894 of 894 (820649)
09-25-2017 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 892 by NoNukes
09-24-2017 7:39 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
NoNukes responds to me:

quote:
I wonder what the meaning of such a statement is. Can you detect life on an exoplanet? Since you cannot, should we assume that no life exists on any of them?

As Percy pointed out, you are engaging in deliberate obfuscation and disingenuousness. I was very specific about what I meant by "undetectable." Let's try it again since it seems you didn't read my post before you responded:

If it is undetectable, then it didn't happen. Note, not merely "undetected" but truly "undetectable." "I moved the couch across the room, but you can't detect it...to you it looks like it's still where it always was, but it's really over here. I know it looks like you're sitting on the couch where it always was, but you're really floating in mid-air because the couch is really over here."

That makes no sense. If an action is to have an effect, it necessarily leaves a trace: Specifically, the effect. I can't see gravity. And we really don't have that great of an idea as to what it is. But we can most certainly see its effects. The very concept of "dark matter" comes from the fact that we can't detect where the (presumable) gravitational force is coming from. But the reason we think there's something there is because we can detect the effect: The galaxies are spinning beyond what our understanding of gravity can account for.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If something touches you, then you necessarily touch it. If this god is going to affect things in the universe, then we will be able to see them when they happen...and thus perform experiments. If there are no effects that can be detected no matter what, then there is no cause.

A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

I've highlighted some relevant portions. Perhaps you'll notice them this time. What do you think they mean?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by NoNukes, posted 09-24-2017 7:39 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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