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Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 151 of 170 (821316)
10-05-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2017 11:20 PM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:

My point about natural resources is that there is a lot of value in having ownership of them that doesn't require any of your labor to acquire...


I didn't say it requires your labour. I said it requires somebody's labour - to acquire the money that measures the value.

New Cat's Eye writes:

On top of that, their value can increase in ways that don't originate in labor - like market fluctuations.


Market fluctuations depend on how much of somebody's labour somebody is willing and able to spend on the resources.

New Cat's Eye writes:

Society has determined that certain individuals own certain things, and that ownership is not arbitrary.


That's exactly what arbitrary means. Society arbitrarily decides that you own the trees but not the minerals. Society arbitrarily decides that you can build a house on your land but not a chemical plant. Society arbitrarily decides that you can sell your land to country A but not to country B.

New Cat's Eye writes:

If the only way you know how to create value is through labor, then people are going to use thier money to buy your labor to create value for themselves.


Uh huh. That's what I've been saying, that the value comes from labour. If somebody "uses my labour" for their own benefit, the value is coming from labour even if the labourer doesn't receive the benefit.

New Cat's Eye writes:

So anyways, going back further - you entered a discussion revolving around the Labor Class


I never said anything about "the Labour Class".

New Cat's Eye writes:

There's nothing wrong with profiting off of human labor when you're risking your money to end up creating more valuable things.


I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. That's a different discussion. I said that labour and taking advantage of somebody else's labour both involve labour.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2017 11:20 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 9:02 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 152 of 170 (821341)
10-05-2017 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
10-05-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Competition
I didn't say it requires your labour.

I didn't say you did, it's just a point. You aren't being very clear, and I'm saying stuff...

I said it requires somebody's labour - to acquire the money that measures the value.

It doesn't take labor to acquire money.

It takes work to generate money.

Market fluctuations depend on how much of somebody's labour somebody is willing and able to spend on the resources.

Or their money in lieu of labor - through which they can acquire more money. But creating value in the form of money is going to take some work, or risk.

New Cat's Eye writes:

Society has determined that certain individuals own certain things, and that ownership is not arbitrary.


That's exactly what arbitrary means.

No, arbitrary means randomly selected. There's a process for determining ownership. And paperwork n'stuff. That's not arbitrary.

Society arbitrarily decides that you own the trees but not the minerals. Society arbitrarily decides that you can build a house on your land but not a chemical plant. Society arbitrarily decides that you can sell your land to country A but not to country B.

That's not how the word arbitrary works.

New Cat's Eye writes:

If the only way you know how to create value is through labor, then people are going to use thier money to buy your labor to create value for themselves.


Uh huh. That's what I've been saying,

After I pried it out of you...

that the value comes from labour.

I originally replied to you saying that value equals labor. I'm disagreeing by saying that value doesn't only come from labor. I offered the example of the value of natural resources. There's also the value of risking your money. Too, market fluctuations can increase value on their own.

If somebody "uses my labour" for their own benefit, the value is coming from labour even if the labourer doesn't receive the benefit.

Not all value comes from labor.

New Cat's Eye writes:

So anyways, going back further - you entered a discussion revolving around the Labor Class


I never said anything about "the Labour Class".

That doesn't mean that you didn't enter a discussion on it. You do realize that the proliteriat is the Labor Class, right?

I said that labour and taking advantage of somebody else's labour both involve labour.

Responding to someone talking about the proletariat with Value=Labor doesn't really look like saying that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 10-05-2017 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Pressie, posted 10-06-2017 6:55 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 10-06-2017 11:53 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 153 of 170 (821349)
10-06-2017 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2017 9:02 PM


Re: Competition
On-and-on it goes.

My new car is from a South Korean Company with a car warranty of 7 years.

Same luxury.

Same comforts.

At half the price of American, British, German, French, Italian or Japanese "reasonably" priced cars.

Beat you Amcans or Brits or Germans or French or Italians or Japs.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 9:02 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by anglagard, posted 10-09-2017 2:08 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 154 of 170 (821375)
10-06-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2017 9:02 PM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:

It takes work to generate money.


That's what I'm saying.

New Cat's Eye writes:

No, arbitrary means randomly selected. There's a process for determining ownership. And paperwork n'stuff. That's not arbitrary.


There are no fixed standards for determining ownership. That's why we need courts to figure it out. I gave examples.

New Cat's Eye writes:

After I pried it out of you...


I began discussing it around Message 40, long before your first post in the thread.

New Cat's Eye writes:

Not all value comes from labor.


And yet you agreed above that, "It takes work to generate money." Isn't that contradictory?

Or is it based on your claim that work and labour are different? I have asked you a number of times to explain the difference.

New Cat's Eye writes:

You do realize that the proliteriat is the Labor Class, right?


Nothing I have said applies to one "class" or another. I don't believe in class distinctions at all. What we have in Canada - and probably the US too - is a spectrum, not a series of distinct groups.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 9:02 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 1:36 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 155 of 170 (821384)
10-06-2017 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ringo
10-06-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:

Not all value comes from labor.


And yet you agreed above that, "It takes work to generate money." Isn't that contradictory?

Not all value is money.

Natural resources have value. Risk adds value.

Or is it based on your claim that work and labour are different? I have asked you a number of times to explain the difference.

You're not answering my questions either.

But not all work is labor.

You can make a machine that does work - labor is done by a human.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 10-06-2017 11:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 10-07-2017 11:42 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 156 of 170 (821433)
10-07-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by New Cat's Eye
10-06-2017 1:36 PM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:

Risk adds value.


I don't think so. The value doesn't actually change until somebody agrees to pay you. You can take a risk on the lottery but that doesn't mean you're worth millions before you win.

New Cat's Eye writes:

You can make a machine that does work - labor is done by a human.


That's a plausible distinction - but how is it pertinent to this discussion?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 1:36 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-08-2017 9:01 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 157 of 170 (821525)
10-08-2017 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
10-07-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Competition
qs=New Cat's Eye Risk adds value.

I don't think so. [/qs]

I can live with that.

New Cat's Eye writes:

You can make a machine that does work - labor is done by a human.


That's a plausible distinction - but how is it pertinent to this discussion?

Not all value comes from labor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 10-07-2017 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 10-09-2017 3:24 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 158 of 170 (821533)
10-09-2017 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Pressie
10-06-2017 6:55 AM


Re: Competition
Pressie writes:

or Japs.

Please don't use a derogatory term for referring to the Japanese, WWII is over and it detracts from your point.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Pressie, posted 10-06-2017 6:55 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 159 of 170 (821575)
10-09-2017 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by New Cat's Eye
10-08-2017 9:01 PM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:

Not all value comes from labor.


You keep saying that. But risk in itself doesn't produce value. There's no value added until somebody pays you for your risk - and he pays you with the fruits of his labour. As for the "work" done by machines, it's for the benefit of humans, isn't it? And humans pay for it with their "labour", don't they?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-08-2017 9:01 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2017 4:06 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 160 of 170 (821581)
10-09-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
10-09-2017 3:24 PM


Re: Competition
I don't know what you're going on about and I've lost interest - it's like pulling teeth trying to get you to make some sense.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 10-09-2017 3:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 11:38 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 161 of 170 (821664)
10-10-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by New Cat's Eye
10-09-2017 4:06 PM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:

I don't know what you're going on about and I've lost interest - it's like pulling teeth trying to get you to make some sense.


What I've done is point out the flaws in your examples.

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2017 4:06 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 162 of 170 (821672)
10-10-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by ringo
10-10-2017 11:38 AM


Steering Back On Topic
Ringo,to New Cats Eye writes:

What I've done is point out the flaws in your examples.

Why not get back on topic and point out the flaws in the American Empire so that we can correct them before we implode and destroy my retirement!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 11:38 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:28 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 163 of 170 (821674)
10-10-2017 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:21 PM


Re: Steering Back On Topic
Phat writes:

Why not get back on topic and point out the flaws in the American Empire so that we can correct them before we implode and destroy my retirement!


No empire lasts forever. I don't think the American Empire can be saved. On the bright side, it will probably last longer than you do.

I'm 65 and can't afford to retire, so I'm not too worried about your retirement.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:21 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:36 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 164 of 170 (821678)
10-10-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by ringo
10-10-2017 12:28 PM


Re: Steering Back On Topic
I'm 65 and can't afford to retire, so I'm not too worried about your retirement.
Well I'm 58, have Type II Diabetes and sleep apnea and am dependent on something external to help me. I would love to help you with your retirement if i had more energy and the means to do so.

The American Empire may not last longer than I do. Perhaps I need to pray for the strength to tolerate being broke as you are, and the strength to work until I drop.

There are some things that we cannot do for ourselves.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:28 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:43 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 165 of 170 (821680)
10-10-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Steering Back On Topic
Phat writes:

Perhaps I need to pray for the strength to tolerate being broke as you are, and the strength to work until I drop.


The only advice I give young people is to enjoy life as they go along - don't wait for retirement. I've worked with too many people who spent their whole lives in jobs they hated, just trying to "get ahead".

My brother died at 56 with a "net worth" of about $700. I'd rather die with my boots on too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 2:29 PM ringo has responded

  
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