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Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 31 of 170 (818680)
08-31-2017 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
08-31-2017 9:19 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Websters writes:


1 the monetary worth of something : market price

2 a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged

3 relative worth, utility, or importance a good value at the price the value of base stealing in baseball had nothing of value to say

4 something (such as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable
sought material values instead of human values — W. H. Jones

5 a numerical quantity that is assigned or is determined by calculation or measurement let x take on positive values a value for the age of the earth

Im guessing that #2 is the one we are discussing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 08-31-2017 9:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-31-2017 9:37 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 32 of 170 (818681)
08-31-2017 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
08-31-2017 9:32 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Stop looking stuff up. Think instead. What is "the total value of goods produced and services provided in a country during one year. "? Who produced the value?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 08-31-2017 9:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 08-31-2017 9:45 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 33 of 170 (818682)
08-31-2017 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-31-2017 9:37 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Human Labor.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-31-2017 9:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 08-31-2017 10:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 35 by jar, posted 09-01-2017 7:00 AM Phat has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 34 of 170 (818685)
08-31-2017 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
08-31-2017 9:45 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Human Labor.

Spoken like a true member of the proletariat.

Imagine that you have a warehouse of shiny widgets with no sales force, no and no advertising and marketing department. What is that stuff in the warehouse worth? Is it more or less than the equivalent weight of boat anchors or scrap metal?

Let's say that the stuff in the warehouse is selling, but some engineer discovers that it can be used to cure cancer. Is the stuff in the warehouse more valuable despite the fact that labor did nothing more to add value? Who is entitled to that new value?

And yet, without labor, there is no product, no value to try to market, increase or enhance.

These questions are stuff that folks on either side of the question sometimes gloss over. There is no universally fair way to assess the contribution of any worker or capitalist, even if all a given laborer does is polish the tables in the show room. If he frees up a more expensive employee, why isn't he worth some of the benefit from doing that?

And of course, the answer is because the employer uses a different system to evaluate what a laborer is worth. Probably akin to "how little can I pay this guy and still get him or somebody like him to walk in the door each day."

On the other hand, the idea that labor creates all value is clearly bogus. Folks who take risks, and who lose money when things do not work out are folks who do contribute to value. One might reasonably question how the money should be divided up. But when the answer is "it's all mine and you get what I decide you should have", then the argument leading to that is suspect.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 08-31-2017 9:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-01-2017 12:53 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 170 (818701)
09-01-2017 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
08-31-2017 9:45 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Human labor is part of it.

What are some of the other parts?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 08-31-2017 9:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 09-01-2017 7:59 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 36 of 170 (818704)
09-01-2017 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
09-01-2017 7:00 AM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
The factories that produce the goods, as well as the raw materials that become the goods themselves.

Or...the services offered, such as barbers, bakers, butchers, etc.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 09-01-2017 7:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 09-01-2017 8:05 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 37 of 170 (818705)
09-01-2017 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
09-01-2017 7:59 AM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
and?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 09-01-2017 7:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 09-01-2017 8:08 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 38 of 170 (818706)
09-01-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
09-01-2017 8:05 AM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
im thinking.....what about the ones who buy our products? What value do they give us for them?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 09-01-2017 8:05 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-01-2017 9:02 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 39 of 170 (818708)
09-01-2017 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
09-01-2017 8:08 AM


what about the least of these?
So the GDP is created by the workers, the bankers, the investors the overseas buyers...

What about the parents and grandparents that stay home and watch kids?

What about the teachers?

How about the kids still in school learning how to be productive adults?

What about the folk that served in our military but are now out and suffering from physical or mental wounds?

How about the illegal migrants that come to plant and harvest the food that is produced?

Do those people also contribute to the creation of the Gross Domestic Product?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 09-01-2017 8:08 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-02-2017 1:51 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 40 of 170 (818724)
09-01-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
08-31-2017 10:18 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:

On the other hand, the idea that labor creates all value is clearly bogus. Folks who take risks, and who lose money when things do not work out are folks who do contribute to value.


Isn't the money they risk also the fruit of human labor?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 08-31-2017 10:18 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2017 1:11 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 41 of 170 (818725)
09-01-2017 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
09-01-2017 12:53 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Isn't the money they risk also the fruit of human labor?

Not necessarily. For example, inherited lottery winnings. Or money earned via investment in the stock market, where the initial investment is a loan. Or money from the sale of property whose value is primarily accumulated via appreciation rather. A bottle of wine may have a value that increases over time just from sitting in a cellar.

Some of that money may have a labor component, but that component can be dwarfed by non-labor considerations.

ABE:

Beyond that, I would suggest that your question is not really relevant. No matter how a first million dollars is earned, if the money can become 2 million dollars for the owner without the owner adding labor, then it is ownership of that second million dollars that serves as the source of my comments.

Edited by NoNukes, : ABE


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-01-2017 12:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 09-01-2017 1:29 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 42 of 170 (818726)
09-01-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by NoNukes
09-01-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:

For example, inherited lottery winnings. Or money earned via investment in the stock market, where the initial investment is a loan. Or money from the sale of property whose value is primarily accumulated via appreciation rather.


Where did that money come from?

NoNukes writes:

A bottle of wine may have a value that increases over time just from sitting in a cellar.


It only has "value" when somebody pays for it. Where does that money come from?

NoNukes writes:

No matter how a first million dollars is earned, if the money can become 2 million dollars for the owner without the owner adding labor, then it is ownership of that second million dollars that serves as the source of my comments.


"Ownership" of the money is not relevant to my comments.

Ownership is arbitrary. Some right-wing nuts believe they "own" their money and that taxation "steals" it from them. In fact, it's society that determines who owns what.

But the real "value" of something can only originate in labor, I think.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2017 1:11 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2017 4:39 PM ringo has responded
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 09-01-2017 5:30 PM ringo has responded
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2017 4:59 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 43 of 170 (818736)
09-01-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
09-01-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
It only has "value" when somebody pays for it. Where does that money come from?

You are ignoring the actual question. The question is not about the source of money, but the ownership of the profits. If the buyer has to work himself into an early grave in order to purchase the wine, then the owner of that old wine still reaps an increase with essentially no labor on his own part.

Beyond that, the purchaser need not buy using the fruit of his own labor, but can be another capitalist.

I don't know what I need to say to make my point any clearer. Some value is derived from sources other than labor even if labor is used to purchase that value. That is a direct exception to the general rule you asked me about. I won't try to explain this again. If you don't care about the ownership of the money then you are discussing something that has nothing to do with the point I made to Phat. I am not interested.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 09-01-2017 1:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 09-02-2017 11:40 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 44 of 170 (818739)
09-01-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
09-01-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
In fact, it's society that determines who owns what.
Although an individual with a good Attorney can school society on the legalities. Society itself has no Attorney to look after their social interests.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 09-01-2017 1:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 09-02-2017 11:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 45 of 170 (818754)
09-02-2017 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
09-01-2017 9:02 AM


Re: what about the least of these?
yes, but that isn't the whole story. I read an article in The Atlantic that talked about the GDP as an outmoded measurement.
quote:
By itself the GDP tells very little. Simply a measure of total output (the dollar value of finished goods and services), it assumes that everything produced is by definition “goods." It does not distinguish between costs and benefits, between productive and destructive activities, or between sustainable and unsustainable ones. The nation's central measure of well-being works like a calculating machine that adds but cannot subtract. It treats everything that happens in the market as a gain for humanity, while ignoring everything that happens outside the realm of monetized exchange, regardless of the importance to well-being.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-01-2017 9:02 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 09-02-2017 7:18 AM Phat has responded
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 09-02-2017 11:46 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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