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Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 46 of 145 (818758)
09-02-2017 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
09-02-2017 1:51 AM


Re: what about the least of these?
While that is correct it is also irrelevant to this discussion.

So the GDP is created by the workers, the bankers, the investors the overseas buyers...

What about the parents and grandparents that stay home and watch kids?

What about the teachers?

How about the kids still in school learning how to be productive adults?

What about the folk that served in our military but are now out and suffering from physical or mental wounds?

How about the illegal migrants that come to plant and harvest the food that is produced?

Do those people also contribute to the creation of the Gross Domestic Product?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-02-2017 1:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 09-02-2017 7:42 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9767
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 47 of 145 (818761)
09-02-2017 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
09-02-2017 7:18 AM


Re: what about the least of these?
I would think that in some way they do. But how could it be measured?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 09-02-2017 7:18 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 09-02-2017 7:51 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 48 of 145 (818762)
09-02-2017 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
09-02-2017 7:42 AM


Re: what about the least of these?
So if they all contribute to creating the GDP, would it be reasonable to assume they deserve some share of the GDP?

For example, would it be reasonable to assume they have an equal right to use the domestic infrastructure, the roads, bridges, sidewalks, public transportation, broadcast radio & TV?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 09-02-2017 7:42 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 09-02-2017 8:46 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9767
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 49 of 145 (818763)
09-02-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
09-02-2017 7:51 AM


Re: what about the least of these?
Of course. Dont people have this right?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 09-02-2017 7:51 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 09-02-2017 8:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 50 of 145 (818765)
09-02-2017 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
09-02-2017 8:46 AM


Re: what about the least of these?
So since you agree that they contributed to creating the Gross Domestic Product and that they deserve the right to share in what was produced by the Gross Domestic Product would it not also be reasonable to say that as a Nation we have a duty to see that they also share in some basic rights such as access to shelter, access to Health Care, access to education, access to support after they can no longer contribute to creating the GDP due to age, accident or sickness?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 09-02-2017 8:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 51 of 145 (818769)
09-02-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by NoNukes
09-01-2017 4:39 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:

If the buyer has to work himself into an early grave in order to purchase the wine, then the owner of that old wine still reaps an increase with essentially no labor on his own part.


Who said it had to be labor on the part of the seller? The "value" is set by whatever the buyer is willing to pay and his money is generated by labor.

NoNukes writes:

Some value is derived from sources other than labor even if labor is used to purchase that value.


Your example is invalid. Try another one.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2017 4:39 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2017 11:47 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 52 of 145 (818770)
09-02-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
09-01-2017 5:30 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Phat writes:

Although an individual with a good Attorney can school society on the legalities. Society itself has no Attorney to look after their social interests.


The Attorney is part of society, along with the legislators and the judicial system.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 09-01-2017 5:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 53 of 145 (818771)
09-02-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
09-02-2017 1:51 AM


Re: what about the least of these?
Phat writes:

I read an article in The Atlantic that talked about the GDP as an outmoded measurement.


That's the point. There is "value" that can not be measured directly in dollars and cents. The standard economic indicators don't include the indirect contributions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-02-2017 1:51 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9928
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 54 of 145 (818772)
09-02-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
09-02-2017 11:40 AM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Your example is invalid. Try another one.

My example is just fine for the purpose of showing that labor is not the source of all income and that other components make up GDP. Many transactions involve no labor at all.

As for other examples, I've already given several. How about all income from interest as yet another. All income from any capital investment. And given that capital gains is a part of GDP, we don't have to wait until things are cashed out.

Your theory is just as bankrupt as the one Phat originally stated. But at least he has the sense to figure out better.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 09-02-2017 11:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 09-02-2017 12:05 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 55 of 145 (818775)
09-02-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
09-02-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:

My example is just fine for the purpose of showing that labor is not the source of all income and that other components make up GDP.


Nope. The seller's income comes from the buyer, who gets it from labor.

NoNukes writes:

How about all income from interest as yet another.


Where does the money for the interest come from?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2017 11:47 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 09-04-2017 7:35 AM ringo has responded
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 09-04-2017 12:29 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9767
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 56 of 145 (818920)
09-04-2017 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
09-02-2017 12:05 PM


Does All Money Originate From Labor?
The subject of money is appropriate for this thread since the science/fact/reality behind it is itself a fascinating yet disturbing sub-topic.

In my opinion, the Fall Of The American Empire will be punctuated by a major economic event. I can only hope that we are still able to stay on our computers and talk with one another when this event ultimately happens.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 09-02-2017 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 09-05-2017 11:42 AM Phat has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9928
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 57 of 145 (818948)
09-04-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
09-02-2017 12:05 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Nope. The seller's income comes from the buyer, who gets it from labor.

1) Not necessarily. Buyers need not be laborers.

2) The point is that the seller gets his money without his own labor. As does the trust fund baby, as does a person who sells stock in a company, as does a person who draws interest on money in a bank.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 09-02-2017 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 09-05-2017 11:46 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 58 of 145 (819035)
09-05-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
09-04-2017 7:35 AM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:

In my opinion, the Fall Of The American Empire will be punctuated by a major economic event.


That depends on what you call a "major economic event". There have been several booms and busts in my lifetime that the pundits refer to as major revents - but none of them had any effect on me. I seem to be swimming upstream, doing well when the economy is bad and worse when the economy is better. It seems to me that it's all relative.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 09-04-2017 7:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-05-2017 2:46 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 59 of 145 (819037)
09-05-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by NoNukes
09-04-2017 12:29 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:

Not necessarily. Buyers need not be laborers.


Even if they're not directly labourers, the money originates in labor. Jesse James didn't rob working people directly but he robbed the banks that stole the money from working people.

NoNukes writes:

The point is that the seller gets his money without his own labor.


That's not much of a point.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 09-04-2017 12:29 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9767
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 60 of 145 (819054)
09-05-2017 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
09-05-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
a major economic event is when a majority of the people are directly affected. Not just in having less disposable income but in having no income.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 09-05-2017 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 09-06-2017 3:29 PM Phat has responded
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 09-06-2017 3:49 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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