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Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1790
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 106 of 170 (820311)
09-19-2017 7:33 AM


I'm not American, so my opinion generally doesn't count for too much.

Where I live the American influence is waning and diminishing rapidly. The Chinese influences are increasing exponentially. Courses in the Mandarin and Cantonese languages are introduced in even primary schools at a rapid rate.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 107 of 170 (820325)
09-19-2017 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
09-18-2017 4:43 PM


Re: can't help it if I'm Lucky.
Value is defined in human terms of need.

I'd say use or want rather than need as you can value you things that you do not need.

The trees have value as flooring or other wood by-products. Labor is involved in creating that added hundred dollars.

No, the added hundred bucks (not dollars) came from selling the rights to the timber. There was no labor at all involved in that value of the rights to the timber.

The property has value as a place to live or to exploit or to simply enjoy. You sold your trees so it appears you don't mind losing them.

I sold the rights to the trees. The trees are still there. And they gotta pay me for the actual timber, too.

The Indians never could understand how the palefaces attached a monetary value to land, rivers, and trees.

They also never invented the wheel... *shrugs*

Value always involves labor in one way or another.

That's a different claim than value only being able to originate in labor. And it depends on what you mean by labor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 4:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13715
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 108 of 170 (820340)
09-19-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
09-18-2017 1:27 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Someone paid me for the rights to harvest the trees from my property. Those trees have value before anybody has ever touched them, and I made money off them without doing anything. I just had to own the land.


Those trees didn't magically increase in value when you bought the land. You just underpaid for them.

New Cat's Eye writes:

Owning the business requires human activity but they are typically excluded from the labor class.
Making sales deals on the fruits of the labor is also typically exluded from the labor class.
The stock brokers trying to sell shares in the company are typically excluded from the labor class.


I don't know what you mean by "the labour class". I'm just talking about labour.

New Cat's Eye writes:

The Accounting and Human Resources Department are sometimes exluded and sometimes included.


Indeed. It's a bullshit classification - you can include or exclude at your convenience.

New Cat's Eye writes:

So in that context, when you say all value comes from labor, its pretty ambiguous what you mean.


YES! It's ambiguous. And yet you guys call it nonsense.

All I've done is ask for examples that don't involve labour.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2017 1:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 12:40 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13715
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 109 of 170 (820341)
09-19-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
09-18-2017 1:45 PM


NoNukes writes:

Things are often worth more than the buyer is able to pay.


What something is "worth" depends entirely on what somebody is willing and able to pay. You can claim that your painting is worth millions but if nobody agrees, it isn't.

NoNukes writes:

The ultimate buyer still does not have to pay using labor.


You haven't shown where the added "value" comes from. Is it magic?

NoNukes writes:

For example, I can extract money from my house by borrowing more than its appreciated value, investing the funds in some passive income like buying wine to age. In the end, I can settle up and have additional funds with no expenditure of labor. It can very well be that everyone that I exchange with earned their money in similar, non-labor, ways


Again, the wine only increases in value if somebody is willing and able to pay more. Where does he get the money that he is willing and able to spend?

You can't have an infinite regression of everybody getting their money for nothing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 09-18-2017 1:45 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:12 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9991
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 110 of 170 (820344)
09-19-2017 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
09-19-2017 11:52 AM


What something is "worth" depends entirely on what somebody is willing and able to pay. You can claim that your painting is worth millions but if nobody agrees, it isn't.

None of that affects the fact that value does not come from labor. I have no idea what point you think you are making with this line of argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 12:17 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13715
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 111 of 170 (820345)
09-19-2017 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
09-19-2017 12:12 PM


NoNukes writes:

None of that affects the fact that value does not come from labor.


Then for God's sake, come up with an example that makes sense. Where does value magically come from in your world?

NoNukes writes:

I have no idea what point you think you are making with this line of argument.


I am neither making a point nor taking a position. I'm trying to make sense of yours. So far, there doesn't seem to be any.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:12 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:25 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9991
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 112 of 170 (820347)
09-19-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
09-19-2017 12:17 PM


hen for God's sake, come up with an example that makes sense. Where does value magically come from in your world?

I've given examples. You dispute them by claiming that the value is created by the purchaser rather than being part of what is purposed. You ignore the fact that even a day laborer won't part with his money unless he is receiving something of value.

The problem is not that my answers do not make sense, it is that you refused to accept my answers. As long as we hold those positions, this discussion is not going anywhere. Of course, your dumbass then insists that you've won the argument.

If we want a source for value, it is a combination of ownership/control and scarcity. Even labor's value is set in this way. You work at a job for 100 hours, but because a couple of hundred million other forks, including 100,000 folks within driving distance can do the same job, your labor is worth 7.25 per hour, and only that because the government artificially props it up. On the other hand, Cam Newton gets 10,000 times your pay just by granting a car dealer the right to publicize that he buys cars there. Labor is just another resource, and it is not involved in every transaction.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 12:38 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13715
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 113 of 170 (820349)
09-19-2017 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by NoNukes
09-19-2017 12:25 PM


NoNukes writes:

You dispute them by claiming that the value is created by the purchaser rather than being part of what is purposed.


So answer the dispute. Where does the value magically come from in your world?

Nonukes writes:

You ignore the fact that even a day laborer won't part with his money unless he is receiving something of value.


And where does the money he receives come from? Where is the magical source?

NoNukes writes:

The problem is not that my answers do not make sense, it is that you refused to accept my answers.


I pointed out how your answers don't work.

NoNukes writes:

Of course, your dumbass then insists that you've won the argument.


As I've said, I'm not making an argument. I'm trying to understand yours. If you can't back it up or if you choose to abandon it, that doesn't break my heart.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:25 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:42 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 114 of 170 (820350)
09-19-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
09-19-2017 11:45 AM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Someone paid me for the rights to harvest the trees from my property. Those trees have value before anybody has ever touched them, and I made money off them without doing anything. I just had to own the land.


Those trees didn't magically increase in value when you bought the land. You just underpaid for them.

You're not making any sense.

I don't know what you mean by "the labour class". I'm just talking about labour.

You prolly shouldn't enter a discussion involving the proletariat if you don't know what the labor class means.

And whatever it is you're "just" talking about, you refuse to define it - and until then you'll continue to be posting nonsense.

Indeed. It's a bullshit classification - you can include or exclude at your convenience.

That's not what that meant, but whatevs. Look:

Some people own the land. Some people work the land.

The land owner can make money without there being work done by laborers. It's not magic.

YES! It's ambiguous. And yet you guys call it nonsense.

Uh, being ambiguous is not making sense by definition. You just admitted you're posting nonsense.

All I've done is ask for examples that don't involve labour.

And you've been given them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 11:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 1:00 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9991
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 115 of 170 (820351)
09-19-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
09-19-2017 12:38 PM


s I've said, I'm not making an argument. I'm trying to understand yours. If you can't back it up or if you choose to abandon it, that doesn't break my heart.

I've expanded my answer to include a source for value. But again, this is not rocket science. At this point, your inability to understand is on you.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 12:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 1:04 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13715
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 116 of 170 (820352)
09-19-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by New Cat's Eye
09-19-2017 12:40 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

You're not making any sense.


You could try saying more than, "Nuh uh." Explain what you don't understand.

Allow me to hold your hand: You bought the land for 100 and then turned around and sold the logging rights for 200. You COULD have told the original owner that he could get 200 for the logging rights. You COULD have offered to find a buyer for the logging rights in return for a finder's fee of, say, 10 per cent.

The trees didn't gain value just because you bought them. They were always worth the 200. You underpaid for them. If you knew they were worth 200, you deliberately ripped the guy off.

New Cat's Eye writes:

You prolly shouldn't enter a discussion involving the proletariat if you don't know what the labor class means.


I said I didn't know what YOU mean by the labour class. We're not talking about classes here.

New Cat's Eye writes:

Some people own the land.


How did they come to own the land?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 1:23 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13715
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 117 of 170 (820353)
09-19-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by NoNukes
09-19-2017 12:42 PM


NoNukes writes:

I've expanded my answer to include a source for value.


Where? If I've failed to address your points, give me the chance to do it now.

You don't add much to a discussion by telling people they're too dumb to understand. Explain it better.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:42 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 118 of 170 (820356)
09-19-2017 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
09-19-2017 1:00 PM


I don't see how you're following anything that I'm saying and I feel like I'm wasting my time.

Good day, sir.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 1:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 1:26 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13715
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 119 of 170 (820357)
09-19-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by New Cat's Eye
09-19-2017 1:23 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

I don't see how you're following anything that I'm saying....


I'm asking direct questions about what you're saying. How is that not following what you're saying?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 1:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 4:46 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 120 of 170 (820372)
09-19-2017 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
09-19-2017 1:26 PM


I'm asking direct questions about what you're saying. How is that not following what you're saying?

You're not following because your questions are not about what I'm saying. They're hardly tangential. They're certainly not direct to the point.

You're literally posting nonsense. And you refuse to answer my questions.

We're done here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 1:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by ringo, posted 09-20-2017 3:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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