Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 115 (8795 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-19-2017 1:55 PM
359 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Upcoming Birthdays: Astrophile, Flyer75
Post Volume:
Total: 820,855 Year: 25,461/21,208 Month: 1,088/2,338 Week: 209/450 Day: 29/52 Hour: 1/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
78
9
101112Next
Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 121 of 170 (820375)
09-19-2017 5:15 PM


Back To Topic-Biblical Prophecy Examined
The topic is the decline and potential fall of the US...lets get back to that since NCE is not up to accepting ringos frame of argument.

In the news recently:
Trump Threatens to ‘Totally Destroy’ North Korea in First U.N. Speech

Hopefully, Trump is not pushing us into a war. I respect his tough talk to a point...but the rhetoric could backfire...and Russia and China would win without firing a shot.

Recently I read a prophey book by a Fundamentalist Pastor who suggested that the US would be destroyed in Bible Prophecy.

quote:
America has been mentioned many times in scripture. The
clearest mention is found in Revelation 18. This chapter describes the end times
Babylon and the judgment that it will receive. I believe America is
the end-times Babylon talked about in this chapter. Let us examine this
chapter to find out why I believe America is the end-times Babylon, and
what will happen to her.

The main reason why I — along with many others — believe that
America is the Babylon talked about in Revelation 18 is because of several
verses that, when considered collectively, lead us to conclude that
America is the only country that fulfills all of the parameters listed in the
verses. Let us examine what the scriptures say about this modern day end times
Babylon and see how they undeniably point to America.

1. End-times Babylon is a great nation that receives judgment for its
many sins.
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the
great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils,
and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and
hateful bird. (Rev. 18:2)

2. This nation is a superpower and has world dominance and
importance. It has also spread its corruption to the world.
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her
fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication
with her. (Rev. 18:3)

3. The merchants of the world are made rich through trading with
this nation. This nation consumes huge amounts of goods.
And the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the
abundance of her delicacies. (Rev. 18:3)
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her;
for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The
merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of
pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all
Thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner
vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and
marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and
frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and
beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls
of men. (Rev. 18:11–13)

4. This nation is proud and arrogant and considers herself to be
invincible and the greatest nation on earth.
How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so
much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit
a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (Rev. 18:7)

5. This nation is typified by an extravagant lifestyle.
And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine
linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious
stones, and pearls! (Rev. 18:16)

6. Other nations are controlled by her and given great riches by her.
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and
lived deliciously with her. (Rev. 18:9)

7. This nation is a coastal nation, with deepwater ports and much
international trade.
And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors,
and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off. (Rev. 18:17)

8. This nation has defenses in the heavens.
Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she
should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers
come unto her, saith the Lord. (Jer. 51:53)

Which nation is the only one in the world that meets all those
qualifications? America! We are the greatest country in the world. We are
the only remaining superpower. We dominate world politics and dictate
much of what happens in other countries through whom and what we fund
in those countries.

We have the largest Gross National Product (GNP) in
the world, far surpassing all other countries. We buy huge amounts of
goods from other countries. In fact, the economy of many countries would
collapse without our trade dollars. We are a proud and arrogant people and
feel that we are invincible and that we are the greatest nation in the world.

America, as a whole, lives in luxury compared to the rest of the world. America has many deepwater ports, and the vast majority of goods entering this country come by way of ship. And, yes, we now are the only country that has offensive and defensive weapons in space.

The only country that meets all of the qualifications above is America.


I take Biblical prophecy with a grain of salt, yet i dont totally dismiss the possibility.

Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Edited by Phat, : link to source


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2017 2:09 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 122 of 170 (820388)
09-20-2017 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
09-19-2017 5:15 PM


Re: Back To Topic-Biblical Prophecy Examined
I take Biblical Prophecy with more than a grain of salt, but if you really want to read those verses as dealing with current times then the U.S. Is the best match, and Fundamentalist "Christianity" the most likely source of the religion of the Beast (the mega-church phenomenon a particular point)

Of course, it is far more likely that they were intended to refer to the Roman Empire about the time of Nero.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 09-19-2017 5:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 09-20-2017 2:40 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 123 of 170 (820389)
09-20-2017 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by PaulK
09-20-2017 2:09 AM


Re: Back To Topic-Biblical Prophecy Examined
Of course, it is far more likely that they were intended to refer to the Roman Empire about the time of Nero.

Hopefully!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2017 2:09 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 09-20-2017 10:44 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 124 of 170 (820418)
09-20-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
09-20-2017 2:40 AM


Something BIG will happen today...or NOT
Just so we can test the theory, the book also mentions today as the start of something big.(I dont really expect the prophecy to be correct, but just in case Kim Jong Un sends a missle our way....
quote:
Prophecy researcher Daniel Matson has made some startling
discoveries regarding the date ciphers of the Great Pyramid complex at
Giza. In Chapter 16 of his book, Signs of the End he states;
What is important is that there is valuable information that must be
passed along that is a striking discovery concerning the Great
Pyramid complex at Giza and its marking both advents of Christ. It
is a discovery that is in line with the Bible, history, and the
224
magnificence of the pyramids. It highlights the time in precise
astronomical alignments. It is a discovery that fits the themes woven
into the Bible concerning the coming King and it further supports the
scenario developed in this book.
Thus his research has led him to believe that the Great Pyramid complex
at Giza astronomically aligned with the First coming of the Lord, and he
believes it will also at His Second Coming, and the alignment points to
Rosh Hashanah 2017. What leads the author to this conclusion?
The basic idea is that the pyramid complex is a map of the heavens
of a point in time when Christ the King returns with his armies. The
pyramids show what is to be at meridian (Al Nitak in Orion), and
also the causeways heading east from the pyramids show the
importance of the rising sun or other items rising in the east. That the
Sphinx also looks to the east is a factor as well. The point though
was to see when there was a candidate for an alignment of Rosh
Hashanah and the meridian alignment of Orion at dawn...Therefore,
at dawn the morning before the Feast of Trumpets 2017, Al Nitak is
precisely at meridian…
Let us not forget the all-important Christ angle to see where it might
come into significance. At the moment Al Nitak is at meridian, Leo
is in the east, but more importantly its star known as Regulus (the
King) is precisely at the inclination of the Christ angle. Therefore,
the Christ angle not only bisected Bethlehem at Christ’s birth, but it
also bisects Regulus at this possible time of his Second Coming. The
year 2017 is the first year from present that Rosh Hashanah comes
immediately after September 20th—the time Al Nitak hits meridian
precisely at dawn, and also when Regulus hits the Christ angle…
In analyzing the positioning of the stars, moon, and sun at the time of
September 20, 2017, there was also another alignment. Venus will be
in conjunction with Regulus at this time. So at this moment Venus
the “Morning Star” will be aligned with the “King Star”, precisely at
the Christ angle…

Edited by Phat, : sub title


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 09-20-2017 2:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2017 11:05 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 125 of 170 (820420)
09-20-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
09-20-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Something BIG will happen today...or NOT
Sounds like a typical prophecy loon. I wonder how many failed predictions he has made already ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 09-20-2017 10:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 126 of 170 (820431)
09-20-2017 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by New Cat's Eye
09-19-2017 4:46 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

You're not following because your questions are not about what I'm saying.


Bullshit.

You pay 100 for a plot of land and sell the logging rights for 200. You claim that's a "gain in value" of 100. But the trees didn't change. They fact that you only paid 100 means that you underpaid, not that the trees magically gained value. How is that not about what you're saying?

If you buy something for half price, the value doesn't doubkle the minute you leave the store.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 4:46 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 10:31 AM ringo has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2719
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 127 of 170 (820442)
09-20-2017 4:08 PM


6955.00 vs 50 bucks.

In Phillie it's 50 bucks.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 128 of 170 (820472)
09-21-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by ringo
09-20-2017 3:09 PM


You pay 100 for a plot of land and sell the logging rights for 200. You claim that's a "gain in value" of 100. But the trees didn't change. They fact that you only paid 100 means that you underpaid, not that the trees magically gained value. How is that not about what you're saying?

It doesn't follow the story.

I bought the land outright, no thought about the trees. The land had a value of 100 bucks to me.

Then later somebody came along and offered the money for the rights to the timber. Now, the land has more value to me - solely from the rights to the trees, not even the trees themselves.

Now that I know that the timber is worth money too, the land has even more value to me.

If you buy something for half price, the value doesn't double the minute you leave the store.

If it isn't what someone is willing to pay for it, then what determines the value?

not that the trees magically gained value.

If all value comes from labor, then who's labor provided the value to the rights to the trees?

How many times have you dodged this question now?

Who's labor adds the value that naturally exists in the resources?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by ringo, posted 09-20-2017 3:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:44 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 09-21-2017 11:44 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 129 of 170 (820474)
09-21-2017 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by New Cat's Eye
09-21-2017 10:31 AM


Value
If all value comes from labor, then who's labor provided the value to the rights to the trees?
Yours. You had to earn the hundred bucks to buy the trees somehow.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 11:26 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 130 of 170 (820475)
09-21-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by New Cat's Eye
09-21-2017 10:31 AM


Value Of Trees
I bought the land outright, no thought about the trees. The land had a value of 100 bucks to me.

Then later somebody came along and offered the money for the rights to the timber. Now, the land has more value to me - solely from the rights to the trees, not even the trees themselves.

Now that I know that the timber is worth money too, the land has even more value to me.

Your value can only increase through another persons labor. The client also had to work (or someone did) in order to offer $200.00 to you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 131 of 170 (820477)
09-21-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
09-21-2017 10:40 AM


Re: Value
If all value comes from labor, then who's labor provided the value to the rights to the trees?
Yours. You had to earn the hundred bucks to buy the trees somehow.

I got the money from capital gains

Your value can only increase through another persons labor. The client also had to work (or someone did) in order to offer $200.00 to you.

The part I disagree with is the "only". There are other ways for my value to increase.

I've got some silver bars that are worth more today than when I bought them... All I had to do was let them sit in a safe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3019
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 132 of 170 (820478)
09-21-2017 11:36 AM


Competition
Can competition increase value?

If CS's one buyer is willing to pay $200 for the rights of the trees...
Well, what if his other neighbor hears of this and is now willing to pay $300 for the rights of the trees?
And then the original buyer decides he's willing to pay $400 for the rights?

What labour increases the value in any bidding war?

I agree that labour is a good way (perhaps basic? fundamental? original? majority?) to increase/create value.
But the only? That seems... difficult to defend.


Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 09-21-2017 11:48 AM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 133 of 170 (820479)
09-21-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by New Cat's Eye
09-21-2017 10:31 AM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Now, the land has more value to me....


That's a fictitious "value". You can believe your painting is worth a million but unless somebody is willing to pay a million for it, it isn't really worth a million.

New Cat's Eye writes:

If it isn't what someone is willing to pay for it, then what determines the value?


It's what somebody is willing and able to pay. They are able to pay because they have earned the money somehow. At some point, the money originates in labor.

New Cat's Eye writes:

If all value comes from labor, then who's labor provided the value to the rights to the trees?


The "rights" in and of themselves are meaningless. You can have the rights to every tree in the world but they're worth nothing unless you can cut them down and sell them.

New Cat's Eye writes:

Who's labor adds the value that naturally exists in the resources?


There is no value that naturally exists in the resources. They have no value until somebody does something.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 12:00 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 134 of 170 (820480)
09-21-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Stile
09-21-2017 11:36 AM


Re: Competition
Stile writes:

What labour increases the value in any bidding war?


The value is the final price. It's what somebody actually pays. Cat's Eye paid less than the real value. That doesn't mean the value increased.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 11:36 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 1:04 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 135 of 170 (820483)
09-21-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
09-21-2017 11:44 AM


That's a fictitious "value".

Then that's just another undefined term in your claim.

All value comes from labor - for your own private definitions of value and labor that you refuse to explain.

Nice job.

There is no value that naturally exists in the resources.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 09-21-2017 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 09-21-2017 12:06 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Prev1
...
78
9
101112Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017