Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-11-2017 2:01 PM
340 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,025 Year: 28,631/21,208 Month: 697/1,847 Week: 72/475 Day: 19/53 Hour: 1/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
171819
20
2122Next
Author Topic:   "Natural" (plant-based) Health Solutions
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 286 of 316 (822620)
10-30-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Faith
10-30-2017 12:55 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Faith writes:

Nobody said "diet can relieve all pain."


You went from gout to arthritis in one paragraph. I'm saying that if cherry juice works for gout there's no reason to think it should work for arthritis. Different disease, different cause, different cure.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 12:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 1:20 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 316 (822621)
10-30-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by ringo
10-30-2017 1:00 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Gout is an acute form of inflammatory arthritis, so no, it is not a different disease. All I know is that the person who has tried it for severe arthritic pain in her hands says it makes a big difference and I had the impression it helped in my case too but I didn't give it enough of a try. Pain level is subjective enough to make it hard to judge after all. I think I'll try again, though, and monitor my blood sugar closely, hoping it doesn't become a problem for that.

Even if it were a different disease, "relieves all pain" wouldn't be a fair assessment.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 10-30-2017 1:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 10-30-2017 1:27 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 288 of 316 (822622)
10-30-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
10-30-2017 1:20 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Faith writes:

Gout is an acute form of inflammatory arthritis, so no, it is not a different disease.


Gout is caused by uric acid deposits. My arthritis is caused by injuries when I was young and foolish. Different disease. Even if the same umbrella term can be used, it shouldn't - especially in the context of dietary cures. Cherry juice isn't going to undo the abuse of my joints fifty years ago.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 1:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 1:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 289 of 316 (822624)
10-30-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by ringo
10-30-2017 1:27 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
We're talking about PAIN RELIEF, specifically by reducing inflammation, not "undoing the abuse of joints." And all references I've found call gout a form of arthritis.

ABE: Mayo Clinic, for instance:

Gout — a complex form of arthritis ...

Intense joint pain.
Gout usually affects the large joint of your big toe, but it can occur in your feet, ankles, knees, hands and wrists. The pain is likely to be most severe within the first four to 12 hours after it begins.

Lingering discomfort.
After the most severe pain subsides, some joint discomfort may last from a few days to a few weeks. Later attacks are likely to last longer and affect more joints.

Inflammation and redness.
The affected joint or joints become swollen, tender, warm and red.

Limited range of motion.
Decreased joint mobility may occur as gout progresses.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 10-30-2017 1:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Modulous, posted 10-30-2017 3:24 PM Faith has responded
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 10-31-2017 11:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 290 of 316 (822631)
10-30-2017 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
10-30-2017 1:32 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Even if the same umbrella term can be used, it shouldn't - especially in the context of dietary cures.
And all references I've found call gout a form of arthritis.

Just to clear things up a bit - the suffix 'itis' means 'inflammation'. The 'arthr-' refers to joints - like in arthropod). It's more a symptom than a disease in its own right. Why the joints are inflamed can vary; You can often relieve symptoms, even those caused by different things, in the same way. For instance, painkillers and anti-inflammatories may relieve the pain associated with the inflammation whatever its cause.

Treating the cause, however, can vary wildly. A headache might be caused by dehydration as a result of not drinking enough fluids, or it could be caused by cancer. The treatment for the former - 'drink water', will not work terribly well for the latter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 1:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 3:52 PM Modulous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 316 (822632)
10-30-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Modulous
10-30-2017 3:24 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
I kinda don't think the Mayo Clinic would confuse those things. In any case what we are talking about here is a nutrient that seems to be able to reduce the pain from joint inflammation whatever its cause.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Modulous, posted 10-30-2017 3:24 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-30-2017 4:13 PM Faith has responded
 Message 295 by Modulous, posted 10-30-2017 4:30 PM Faith has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11839
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 292 of 316 (822636)
10-30-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
10-30-2017 3:52 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
I kinda don't think the Mayo Clinic would confuse those things. In any case what we are talking about here is a nutrient that seems to be able to reduce the pain from joint inflammation whatever its cause.

Gout is arthritis but not all arthritis is gout.

Cherry juice helps gout but not necessarily arthritis in general.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 3:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 4:25 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 293 of 316 (822637)
10-30-2017 4:24 PM


Cherry Juice
Some scientific evidence does suggest that drinking cherry juice or eating tart (pie) cherries in season can help relieve muscle pain, arthritis pain and the pain of gout as well as – or better than – aspirin and other anti-inflammatory drugs. The anthocyanins that give tart cherries their color are likely responsible for their anti-inflammatory,
(from Andrew Weil's site)

Found out it's also good for insomnia:

https://www.menshealth.com/...y-juice-helps-you-sleep-better

Researchers had seven older adults with insomnia drink eight ounces of Montmorency tart cherry juice twice a day for two weeks, followed by two weeks of no juice, and then two more weeks of drinking a placebo beverage.

Compared to the placebo, drinking the cherry juice resulted in an average of 84 more minutes of sleep time each night. 

Cherry juice is a natural source of the sleep-wake cycle hormone melatonin and the amino acid tryptophan, says study coauthor Frank L. Greenway, director of the outpatient research clinic at the Pennington Biomedical Research Center at LSU. 

“Proanthocyanidins, or the ruby red pigments in tart cherry juice, contain an enzyme that reduces inflammation and decreases the breakdown of tryptophan, letting it go to work longer in your body,” he says. Montmorency cherries are particularly high in those compounds. (The study was funded by the Cherry Marketing Institute, but the group had no role in the study design or outcome.)

Not a cherry juice fan? Try kiwi.


    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 294 of 316 (822638)
10-30-2017 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by New Cat's Eye
10-30-2017 4:13 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Look it up. It also helps arthritis in general, both rheumatoid and osteoarthritis.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-30-2017 4:13 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 295 of 316 (822639)
10-30-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
10-30-2017 3:52 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
I kinda don't think the Mayo Clinic would confuse those things.

They didn't.

In any case what we are talking about here is a nutrient that seems to be able to reduce the pain from joint inflammation whatever its cause.

From a cursory look about the literature there is some positive results regarding tart cherries reducing frequency of pain attacks as a result of gout. I see 'little better than placebo' for osteoarthritis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 3:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 4:39 PM Modulous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 296 of 316 (822641)
10-30-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Modulous
10-30-2017 4:30 PM


Re: Cherry juice does help osteoarthritis pain
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/246114.php

Osteoarthritis Patients May Benefit From Drinking Tart Cherry Juice
Published Friday 1 June 2012
By Grace Rattue

Tart cherries have the highest anti-inflammatory content of any food, according to researchers, and may help individuals suffering from osteoarthritis manage their disease.

The study, conducted by researchers from Oregon Health and Science University, involved 20 women aged 40-70 with inflammatory osteoarthritis. The study was presented May 30th at the American College of Sports Medicine Conference (ACSM) in San Francisco, California.

The researchers found that drinking tart cherry juice two times per day for three weeks resulted in considerable reductions in vital inflammation markers, especially for participants who had the highest inflammation levels at the start of the study.

Lead researcher of the study, Kerry Kuehl, M.D., Dr.PH., M.S., Oregon Health & Science University, said:

"With millions of Americans looking for ways to naturally manage pain, it's promising that tart cherries can help, without the possible side effects often associated with arthritis medications. I'm intrigued by the potential for a real food to offer such a powerful anti-inflammatory benefit - especially for active adults."

Osteoarthritis is the most prevalent type of arthritis. According to the Arthritis Foundation, athletes are at particular risk for developing osteoarthritis, due to excessive joint use that can a breakdown in cartilage and lead to pain and injury.

Kuehl's previous research suggests that the inflammation benefits of tart cherries, available in dried, frozen and juice forms, could be particularly important for athletes. Kuehl found that individuals who drank tart cherry juice while training for a long distance run experienced considerably less pain after exercise than those who didn't.

The antioxidant compounds in tart cherries, called anthocyanins, provide the fruit's bright color and have been associated to high antioxidant capacity and reduced inflammation, at levels similar to some popular pain medications.

A daily dose of tart cherries (as cherry extract) reduced osteoarthritis pain by over 20% in most people, according to results from a study conducted by researchers at Baylor Research Institute.

Furthermore, the antioxidant compounds in cherries have also been shown to reduce muscle and joint soreness.

=
This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Modulous, posted 10-30-2017 4:30 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Modulous, posted 10-30-2017 6:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 297 of 316 (822649)
10-30-2017 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
10-30-2017 4:39 PM


Re: Cherry juice does help osteoarthritis pain
quote:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/246114.php

https://www.researchgate.net/...flammatory_Osteoarthritis_OA

I prefer to get my science from the horse's mouth, not a science journalist's. First, let me point out that the "Journal of Food Studies" is not on the Master Journal List. Second, Macrothink - the publisher - appears to be operating a 'pay to publish' model, which routinely have poor to non-existent peer review.

Moving on:

quote:
The study, conducted by researchers from Oregon Health and Science University, involved 20 women aged 40-70 with inflammatory osteoarthritis.

It was actually 21 women, though one dropped out partway due to adverse reaction to the placebo. Their headline results actually dropped one participant so it was actually 19 to get their conclusion. This is a small study then. The kind of study that might be performed as a pilot, or by a university student. Strong conclusions cannot be drawn.

The researchers found that drinking tart cherry juice two times per day for three weeks resulted in considerable reductions in vital inflammation markers

Of the four markers they measured, only one of them had a statistically significant reduction. And only if they excluded one of the participants from the analysis (ie., by throwing out 5% of their data, whether for good reason or not). If they included the one person who had the same very high values before and after cherries - the significance vanished.

Here it is from their study:

quote:
There were no statistically significant differences between the Tart Cherry and Placebo
groups at baseline for all biomarkers.
One subject had an extremely high CRP post test (41 mg/L) and this sample assay was
repeated and found to be the same value. The analysis was performed again without this
outlier value, see Table 2. Results show a statistically significant reduction in CRP in the tart
cherry group when this outlier is removed.
.

Still no statistically significant impact on the other markers. And by statistically significant, we really are talking on the edge of significance p=0.016

The reduction still put the participants in the 'high' category of CRP (over 3).

The question one wants to ask is - does the drop in CRP correlate to an actual reduction in inflammation or is it just a drop in CRP - which is just a marker?

It cites Neutrophils injure cultured skeletal myotubes to support the cherry - CRP link but that paper doesn't seem to mention either cherries or CRP so I'm at a loss there.

They also cite Efficacy of a tart cherry juice blend in preventing the symptoms of muscle damage. but that's the wrong cite, as that study cites Consumption of Bing Sweet Cherries Lowers Circulating Concentrations of Inflammation Markers in Healthy Men and Women. This study had 18 participants (so also small) and contained no placebo group. The change in CRP was 25% at peak. Again, other inflammation markers did not change. Their conclusion is essentially that it's interesting but requires a larger study.

So that's a bit of a wash. Has anyone done a decent sized study? Do we know if the reduction in CRP is related to actual drops in inflammation or pain?

The largest study I could find had 58 participants
Randomized double-blind crossover study of the efficacy of a tart cherry juice blend in treatment of osteoarthritis (OA) of the knee.

quote:
In conclusion, WOMAC scores improved significantly when patients were taking tart cherry juice but this effect was not significantly better than placebo. Additionally, patients had significantly decreased hsCRP when taking cherry juice compared to placebo. The decline in hsCRP when taking cherry juice was associated with improved WOMAC scores.

The scores improved slightly, but not by much. Nothing to sniff at, but hardly 'considerable reductions' in pain. The pain score on cherries went from 42 to 36 with huge error margins (in the region of plus or minus 25).

Certainly interesting, but as far as I can see, nothing particularly spectacular at this time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 4:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 298 of 316 (822682)
10-31-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
10-30-2017 1:32 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Faith writes:

We're talking about PAIN RELIEF, specifically by reducing inflammation, not "undoing the abuse of joints."


You have to consider the mechanism. Gout is apparently caused by uric acid crystals. It is easy enough to imagine a chemical treatment for a chemical problem but a chemical treatment for a mechanical problem makes less sense.

In general, self-medication is a bad idea whether you're using alcohol or over-the-counter drugs or cherry juice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 1:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-31-2017 12:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10225
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 299 of 316 (822690)
10-31-2017 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by ringo
10-31-2017 11:48 AM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
are you suggesting that regular arthritis is a "mechanical problem"? add by edit: Oh now I see.
My arthritis is caused by injuries when I was young and foolish.
I guess my question now is why chemicals cant at least help you deal with the pain. Given the choice between a natural anti-inflammatory and a pill, I would go with the natural one. They both are chemical solutions.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 10-31-2017 11:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 10-31-2017 1:05 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 300 of 316 (822691)
10-31-2017 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Phat
10-31-2017 12:55 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Phat writes:

Given the choice between a natural anti-inflammatory and a pill, I would go with the natural one. They both are chemical solutions.


My question is whether the "natural" treatment actually IS an anti-inflammatory. I'm saying that the cherry juice might have an effect on the uric acid crystals but they're less likely to have an effect on worn/damaged bones. If the cherry juice is effecting the nervous system that causes the pain sensation there might be some validity to it. But until we know what the cherry juice is actually doing, we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it will help all inflammations.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-31-2017 12:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 10-31-2017 1:08 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 10-31-2017 3:55 PM ringo has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
171819
20
2122Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017