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Author Topic:   "Natural" (plant-based) Health Solutions
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 301 of 316 (822693)
10-31-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by ringo
10-31-2017 1:05 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
good point.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 10-31-2017 1:05 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 302 of 316 (822710)
10-31-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by ringo
10-31-2017 1:05 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
But until we know what the cherry juice is actually doing, we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it will help all inflammations.

It's specifically called an "anti-inflammatory," and the markers in the blood that were the indicators of efficacy in the studies Modulus was talking about were specifically markers for inflammation. That's why it is thought it could be effective for any form of inflammation of the joints. Besides which, there are anecdotal reports from sufferers of osteoarthritis that it does seem to reduce their pain, which would be due to reduction in inflammation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 10-31-2017 1:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 11-01-2017 3:33 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 303 of 316 (822798)
11-01-2017 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Faith
10-31-2017 3:55 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Faith writes:

That's why it is thought it could be effective for any form of inflammation of the joints.


Again, "could be effective" is not a good enough reason for self-medication. Anecdotes that "seem" to confirm are not good enough reasons for self-medication.

Figure out what there is in cherries that causes the improvement. Then eat cherries and other foods that contain the same ingredient(s). Buckets of cherry juice or handfuls of cherry pills are no substitute for real food.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 10-31-2017 3:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 11-02-2017 5:52 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 304 of 316 (822869)
11-02-2017 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by ringo
11-01-2017 3:33 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
The effective ingredient is called Anthocyanin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 11-01-2017 3:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 11:42 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 305 of 316 (822905)
11-03-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
11-02-2017 5:52 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Faith writes:

The effective ingredient is called Anthocyanin.


quote:
Although anthocyanins have been shown to have antioxidant properties in vitro,[39] there is no evidence for anthocyanin antioxidant effects in the body after the plant is consumed.[40][41][42] Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 11-02-2017 5:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 5:44 PM ringo has responded
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 11-17-2017 1:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 306 of 316 (822943)
11-03-2017 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by ringo
11-03-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Odd that it is common knowledge, verified many times by experience, that cherry juice and just cherries are very effective at reducing gout pain. Even doctors tell people that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 1:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 307 of 316 (823030)
11-05-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
11-03-2017 5:44 PM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Faith writes:

Odd that it is common knowledge, verified many times by experience, that cherry juice and just cherries are very effective at reducing gout pain.


Common knowledge is like common sense. Dirt is common too but not very valuable.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 5:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2352
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 308 of 316 (823628)
11-14-2017 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
10-29-2017 3:50 PM


Re: There's no point in attacking people for not doing what you think they should do
Apologies for my tardy reply. I've been away/busy/lazy.

But it's clear from some examples that some have added years after standard therapy gave up on a person.

That is absolutely not clear, nor true.

None of Wark's homilies, at least none of the ones you've mentioned, have any evidence of anyone living beyond what might be expected. Wark's own case shows no such thing, Karen's case certainly shows no such thing. And doctor's don't "just give up" on people. They are honest enough to tell them when they have no cure, that's not the same as "giving up on them".

And besides, to say they don't "go beyond standard medical expectations" is already saying quite a bit, since obviously good food is a lot easier on a person than chemo and radiation and surgery.

You misunderstand. When I say that none of these cases exceed "standard medical expectations", I mean that they don't exceed the expectations even for a person who isn't being treated. Wark's survival, considered entirely in the context of his refusing chemo, is unremarkable. It is well within the norm. Karen's survival is quite ordinairy. As we have seen, 10% of WM patients are alive and well, with no chemo, after ten years. Armed with that information Karen's survival suddenly looks a great deal less impressive, certainly well within normal expectations.

Just to equate the different modes as you do here is a big plus for alt-med.

I am not equating them, nor should they be equated.

The cases cited by Wark show nutrition patients doing no better than we would expect from the more fortunate untreated patients.

There isn't much to misinterpret when she went to more than one doctor and none of them gave a hint of extenuating circumstances.

You don't know that. You only have Karen''s word from it, based upon her imperfect recollections. That applies to all of her story.

She had been a vegetarian before all this and dairy had been a big part of her diet. She didn't completely get rid of meat, had some organic chicken, also organic eggs.

That makes no sense. If she was vegetarian, she could hardly have been eating chicken.

Vitamin D, exercise, and replaced all cleaning products with "green" products,

How much vitamin D? In what form? How often?

How much exercise? Compared to how much before?

"And the phrase "green products" is entirely meaningless.

All this is too vague to be of use to any rational examination.

I don't think she's vague, though as usual I agree that a lot more research is needed to pin down the circumstances of any given case.

I don't agree actually. researching individual cases is pointless. It's only by studying multiple cases that one can detect the underlying trends. That's how meaningful insights are gained. Researching a single case might be somewhat useful, but it isn't particularly instructive, since the peculiarities of that single case might not apply equally across the board. That's a big part of why these case-by-case anecdotes are so worthless; they do nothing to separate a particular patient's unique experience from the whole.

I think outright lying is very rare, that people get things wrong or unconsciously exaggerate or anything else but lying is very rare.

Yes I shouldn't have said "cured" and I'm not sure why I lapsed into that.

Fine, you didn't lie. You misspoke. Again. Please stop misspeaking. Karen's cancer is not cured.

But she was as "cured" as she could have been on standard therapy,

Yes, she was "cured" as in "not cured".

If you mean to say that Karen is alive and asymptomatic, just say that. If you choose to attribute this to nutrition, I can't stop you, but you have no real reason to do so, especially given that Karen's case is not particularly exceptional.

she got her numbers down as far as possible on FOOD and other very ordinary interventions, as far as she could have on chemo, and that has to mean a lot,

Nonsense. It doesn't have to mean that nutrition was the cause. A single case study does not and cannot achieve such a distinction. The possibility remains that Karen would be just as well without her nutritional regime. Remember, 10% of WM patients are alive and asymptomatic after ten years even without treatment. Karen has managed twelve. That's impressive, but not mind blowing.

I would agree except that all I've been talking about is the nutrient blitz method, which stands out in Wark's program and in the cancer conference too, with very little of the other oddball stuff, which as a matter of fact I myself have not encountered in any of my own researches to any degree I'd call "drowning out" the effective methods. As a matter of fact I haven't even run across a mention of Reiki anywhere yet.. And Greger studies nothing BUT nutrition. I know you want to attack all of "alt-med" but that is not what I'm posting about: this thread is about Plant-Based Nutrition, as per the title.

Fair enough. I do think though that the willingness of some of your sources to embrace outright craziness undermines them as trustworthy sources. I am loathe to take medical recommendations from someone who thinks that homoeopathy is real or that you can heal with crystals.

In Greger's specific case, I agree that he doesn't go for that sort of stuff. His problems are more direct; he simply misrepresents studies to further his highly partisan vegan agenda.

You are calling Chris Wark dishonest for failing to provide information about failed nutritional cures. But oddly enough nobody has yet provided that information on this thread. I get the impression it doesn't really exist.

Are you ***ing kidding me?!

Nutrition failed to cure Abraham Cherrix. It failed to cure Jessica and Sharyn Ainscough. It failed to cure Bill Henderson. It has failed others. I can name more if you wish, but I think I make my point. Nutritionist quacks act like they can cure any ill through nutrition, but in actual fact they can point to little in the way of concrete success. Cancer patients who choose to treat their illness with nutrition can and do die. There are failures, but you won't hear mention of them on chrisbeatcancer. By concentrating only upon the positive stories and ignoring the failures, Wark creates a false narrative of overwhelming success, one that is not born out by examination of his claims.

But I think my overall position here is that we are NOW at a point that we COULD sort out the effective from the ineffective methods proposed by all the various alt-med sources, and NOW is the time when effective research could begin.

We have been at that point for decades, centuries even. The earliest mention of a crude clinical trial comes from - you're gonna like this - the Book of Daniel. The notion of a controlled experiment is nothing new. The modern clinical trial has existed since the 1950s at least, arguably as far back as the 1920s. That's plenty of time for the research that would vindicate the nutritionists to have been done. And it has been done to an extent, with no good evidence for nutritional cancer therapies.

I don't think anything is served by the constant labelling of alt-med people as charlatans and quacks

I don't see that anything is served by allowing quacks and charlatans too go unchallenged. In particular, I think that you do yourself a disservice by using quacks and charlatans as your sources.

and I don't think the necessary research is to be expected from the alt-med people who have experienced cures and feel they suffered at the hands of doctors too,

I don't really care who does the research, I only care that anybody making medical claims be able to back up those claims with hard evidence. If nutritionists and other alt-med types aren't up to that challenge, that's their problem.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 10-29-2017 3:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2352
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 309 of 316 (823629)
11-14-2017 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
10-30-2017 11:55 AM


Re: Solutions Should Be Up To The Individual.
You claim that by promoting the Truth About Cancer Conference I'm promoting Ty Bollinger himself, which is absurd.

It's not. "Truth About Cancer" is literally Bollinger's trademark. It is the brand he uses to sell alt-med garbage. It is his primary web presence. The conference is merely another promotional vehicle for Bollinger and associated quacks. He is the host because it's his event. You can't expect to promote Bollinger's event without promoting its primary beneficiary.

He made one false statement according to you

According to me? Excuse me Faith, but are you somehow in doubt?

The claim that 97% of chemo patients die within five years is false. I have clearly demonstrated this. It ought to be obvious to any reasonable observer that this is nonsense, even at a glance. It is so plainly, so manifestly moronic that I am left with only three options;

Bollinger is insane,

Bollinger is an imbecile, or,

Bollinger is lying.

Probably it's a bit of each. I don't know. All I know is that anyone who can utter such obvious tripe is a piss-poor source of medical advice and that spreading inane scare stories like this is reprehensible.

It wasn't a "course," it was a conference with dozens of independent speakers who all have their own area of interest, big difference.

Call it what you want, it was a circus, where a selection of loons, antivaxers and quacks prated their usual bunkum from a big stage in front of a credulous crowd.

How am I in any way promoting the convener of the conference about whom I know absolutely nothing except what you've been carrying on about?

You were practically begging people to sign up for his conference! In doing so you were promoting Bollinger and all of the loonies who he had on there, including dangerous antivaxers, quacks and charlatans.

My interest was in the different approaches to cancer presented at the conference and I could not care less about who convened it.

I appreciate that your interest was honest and I am not accusing you of being a liar or a lunatic. However, some of the people who you have been plugging are liars and/or lunatics. Bollinger is one such. Adams is another.

I don't believe that you actually want to spread misinformation or scare stories. I'm just trying to open your eyes to the kind of people you have been praising.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 11:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 310 of 316 (823660)
11-15-2017 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
10-30-2017 11:55 AM


DMSO Not FDA Approved Yet It Works
I use one controversial substance after reading lots of information about it. It is called DMSO and the claims are that it has been thoroughly though not conclusively studied. I use it on my feet and ankles to improve circulation and reduce swelling. I can report that it works well for the said purpose. Lots of documented research and lots of testimonials, not that they carry any weight scientifically.

Edited by Phat, : sub title


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 10-30-2017 11:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Joe T, posted 11-17-2017 1:29 PM Phat has responded

  
Joe T
Member
Posts: 41
From: Virginia
Joined: 01-10-2002


(1)
Message 311 of 316 (823819)
11-17-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Phat
11-15-2017 7:10 AM


Re: DMSO Not FDA Approved Yet It Works
You probably already know this, but make sure your feet are clean before you apply the DMSO. DMSO penetrates the skin easily and rapidly and can carry other chemical compounds with it that don't normally penetrate the skin so readily. You would hate to be introducing bad stuff into your system inadvertently.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Phat, posted 11-15-2017 7:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 11-18-2017 7:56 AM Joe T has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 312 of 316 (823820)
11-17-2017 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by ringo
11-03-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
Seems they have done scientific studies and the cherry juice concentrate works.
https://youtu.be/N5rcQBVf-_E

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by ringo, posted 11-18-2017 11:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 313 of 316 (823866)
11-18-2017 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Joe T
11-17-2017 1:29 PM


Re: DMSO Not FDA Approved Yet It Works
I read up a lot on this substance. It is hawked by quacks and doctors alike. There have been many studies done on it scientifically and the consensus seems to be that it is not dangerous...apart from sometimes causing a mild skin rash which goes away--EXCEPT concerning the issue of how it can draw any other substance into the body through its powerful absorbability. Its odd how we Biblical Christians seem to flock towards non FDA approved cures, isnt it? Buzz did it and Faith also does it. I myself occasionally latch onto a product despite it being alternative and unapproved, largely because of all that I read from a wide variety of sources.

I challenge anyone to find literature that shows conclusively that DMSO is either

  • Ineffective or
  • Potentially Dangerous.

    Do your research carefully, as I have done.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 311 by Joe T, posted 11-17-2017 1:29 PM Joe T has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 314 by NoNukes, posted 11-18-2017 9:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 10059
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 314 of 316 (823870)
    11-18-2017 9:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 313 by Phat
    11-18-2017 7:56 AM


    Re: DMSO Not FDA Approved Yet It Works
    Its odd how we Biblical Christians seem to flock towards non FDA approved cures, isnt it? Buzz did it and Faith also does it

    Maybe your acceptance of things goofy is odd. But such "flocking" is not surprising in the least. I would suggest that your pattern of accepting BS is part of a pattern of thinking that you apply to many situations. It is the same pattern that causes folks to think that comets are omens or that Bible codes actually mean something.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 313 by Phat, posted 11-18-2017 7:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13866
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 315 of 316 (823875)
    11-18-2017 11:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 312 by Phat
    11-17-2017 1:51 PM


    Re: Cherry juice, carrot juice, greens as healers
    Phat writes:

    Seems they have done scientific studies and the cherry juice concentrate works.


    Faith said in Message 281 that she's concerned about the sugar content. I always cringe at the idea of using "natural" products in concentrate form or pill form. How much do you have to process it before it ceases to be "natural"?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 312 by Phat, posted 11-17-2017 1:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 316 by NoNukes, posted 11-18-2017 12:33 PM ringo has not yet responded

      
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