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Author Topic:   "Natural" (plant-based) Health Solutions
Phat
Member
Posts: 10656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 556 of 606 (830358)
03-27-2018 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 555 by PaulK
03-27-2018 4:39 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
His recommendations are ridiculously elaborate and are not supported by good evidence.
You and I can do dualing articles all day, but the evidence is in the results. I know Tiffany Binder personally, as she used to be an associate of Ron Rosedale here in Denver. My friend Chris, who like me had moderate to severe type 2 diabetes, was dying using the regimen prescribed for him by traditional medicine. (Insulin, statins, and the AMA recommended diabetic diet. Additionally, in the 3 weeks that I have been on a low carb diet and vegetables, and by cutting out half of my medications (yes, the Doctor knows...they don't recommend it but we shall see my numbers next visit April 10th) I already feel much better, the swelling in my legs has gone down tremendously and I have more energy.

So you can warn me about faddists yet you do not know as much about the science behind this diet as I do...

article cited by PaulK writes:


Rosedale is supremely confident that he knows how to overcome leptin resistance, prolong life, and improve health. He could be right, but I am skeptical. (...)Like any other claim, this one will have to be tested in controlled studies before mainstream medicine can accept it. Even if there is a layer of truth in Rosedale’s hypothesis, the truth is buried under a laundry list of specific recommendations that don’t make sense and are not based on any credible evidence.

Without controlled testing, we don’t have any credible evidence that this diet works as claimed or is safe, but we don’t have any evidence that it doesn’t work or isn’t safe either, so if anyone wanted to try it, I wouldn’t object.

Fair enough. This gets back to my point about intuition versus analytical thinking.
How Critical Thinkers Lose Their Faith in God

You are wise to examine the evidence, but my contention is that Dr.Rosedale is ahead of many Doctors...my own Endocrinologist included.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by PaulK, posted 03-27-2018 4:39 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by PaulK, posted 03-28-2018 1:22 AM Phat has responded
 Message 563 by Faith, posted 03-28-2018 1:36 AM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 557 of 606 (830364)
03-27-2018 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by Granny Magda
03-27-2018 1:53 PM


Re: A couple of studies
I don't really know how to respond to that, other than resorting to an outbreak of Rrhain-esque blinking. Do you seriously doubt that a low-fat calorie controlled diet can improve health?

I said "radically." That kind of diet, just removing fat and calories, may prevent some conditions from occurring, but the plant-based diet supposedly brings about noticeable improvements in health: greater energy, clearing up of many small maladies.

It seems that when internet videos tell you something, you believe it wholeheartedly, but when actual doctors are involved, you refuse to believe even the most obvious facts.

Most of the video experts are MDs who have made a thorough study of nutrition, which MDs in general don't get, though you and others keep trying to say they do. They get a pathetic minimum of nutrition education and often based on information that gets discredited in a year or two. Witness the everchanging nutritional "pyramids."

And I DON'T take everything on the videos as gospel truth, I take them as pointing in the right direction.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 552 by Granny Magda, posted 03-27-2018 1:53 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 558 of 606 (830365)
03-27-2018 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Phat
03-27-2018 3:57 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Hi Phat,

Here is a talk that he once had. Read it if you dare, and tell me that his science is not on point.

Okay. His science is not on point.

You did ask.

Seriously though, this talk is packed with nonsense. I read as far as this before I lost the will to live;

quote:
So where do carbohydrates come in?

They don‘t. There is no essential need for carbohydrates. Why are we all eating carbohydrates? To keep the rate of aging up, we don‘t want to pay social security to everyone.


That is absolutely moronic. We eat carbohydrates because most foods contain them. Attempt to cut out all carbohydrates for any length of time and you will die. And as for the conspiracy theory angle, that is moronic and disgusting. Rosedale is fear-mongering.

And seriously, some of the inane drivel in this thing...

quote:
Whenever oxygen combines with something, it oxidizes. Oxygen is a very poisonous substance. Throughout most of the history of life on Earth there was no oxygen. Organisms had to develop very specific mechanisms of dealing with high levels of oxygen before there could ever be life with oxygen.

So we evolved very quickly, as plants arose and developed a very easy means of acquiring energy, they could just lay back and catch rays, they dealt with that oxygen with the carbon dioxide by spitting it out, so the oxygen in the atmosphere increased. All the other organisms then had to cope with that toxic oxygen. If they didn‘t have ways of
dealing with it, they perished.

One of the earliest ways of dealing with all that oxygen was for the cells to huddle together so that at least the interior cells wouldn‘t be exposed as much. So, multi-celled organisms arose after oxygen did. Of course, with that came the need for cellular communication.


What utter bullshit! Does Rosedale think that plants are not multi-celled organisms? He seems to imply that here. Cyanobacteria are not plants. Rosedale is out by about three billion years.

quote:
Multi-celled organisms arose after oxygen did

Yeah, about 8.5 billion years later! Even if we assume that what he's trying to say is that multicellularity emerged after the oxygenation of the atmosphere, he is still talking about a gap of around 1 billion years. But that doesn't quite fit the narrative he's trying to sell.

quote:
Throughout most of the history of life on Earth there was no oxygen.

Rubbish. Earth's atmosphere contained no free oxygen, but there was oxygen, albeit in compound. Apparently Rosedale's research on this subject didn't run as deep as Wikipedia;

quote:
Before photosynthesis evolved, Earth's atmosphere had no free oxygen (O2).[2] Photosynthetic prokaryotic organisms that produced O2 as a waste product lived long before the first build-up of free oxygen in the atmosphere,[3] perhaps as early as 3.5 billion years ago. The oxygen they produced would have been rapidly removed from the atmosphere by weathering of reducing minerals, most notably iron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geological_history_of_oxygen

And what has this garbled retelling of the history of oxygen got to do with anything anyway? His only point in raising it appears to be that... oxygen is highly reactive... which we knew.

His talk is full of stuff like this; irrelevant, inaccurate asides that serve to do little beyond bamboozling the audience. And this was originally not presented in written form remember, this was a talk, so his audience would not have been able to fact-check this rubbish on the fly. This is the Gish gallop in full swing.

Some of Rosedale's claims are out-and-out lies. Take this for example;

quote:
The common therapy for osteoporosis is drugs, and the common therapy for claudication is surgery. For cancer reduction there is nothing.

For cancer reduction there is nothing? That is simply a lie. And let me be clear, it is not an error or a difference of opinion. Rosedale did not misspeak. He is lying. There are numerous drugs that reduce the risk of cancer recurrence. Rosedale cannot possibly be so ignorant as to be unaware of this. He is lying. Worse, he is deliberately telling a lie that endangers peoples' lives.

To those participants who value the supposed good character of their alt-med gurus, I leave you to draw your own conclusions as to what this behaviour says about Rosedale's character.

Beyond Rosedale's general bad science, I see only a string of meaningless case studies, some of which are astoundingly vague. What exactly are we meant to conclude from this little parable?

quote:
High Cancer Risk

This patient had a mother and sister who had both died of breast cancer. I put her on the exact same treatment as the other cases I just mentioned, because they all had the same thing wrong with them.


That's it! As far as I can tell, that's all there is on that "case". That isn't a "case history". It doesn't even amount to a vague synopsis. He doesn't even say whether this woman actually got breast cancer or not! This is truly pathetic stuff.

quote:
Dr.Ron Rosedale is an expert and is at the cutting edge of this science

What science? There is no science here. Rosedale has precisely zero clinical research to back up his claims. His recommendations are entirely unsupported. He projects an aura of confidence but the truth is that he's running with a hunch. It may be a well-informed and even plausible hunch, but there's no evidence here.

Yes, I know it is on Mercolas website

No reputable clinician would partner with a fraud like Mercola.

but Rosedale himself is not selling anything.

Apart from his book. And his e-book. But worry not!

quote:
Dr Rosedale's Elite supplement line will be relaunched soon. We appreciate the desires of our past customers, patients, and friends. Thank you for your continued loyalty over the years.

Life Supplement, is a new exciting line, including a Breakfast Replacement and other foods soon to be launched in India.

Read more: http://drrosedale.com/products#ixzz5AzUUs6uH
Follow us: @DrRosedale on Twitter | RosedaleHealthPlan on Facebook


In the case of my own health, I will no longer listen to my Endocrinologist who does nothing for me but prescribe more insulin, Trulicity, and statin lowering drugs.

That sounds like a dangerous gamble to me and I am concerned to hear you say that. Despite the fear-mongering efforts of Dr Rosedale, statins have well-proven beneficial effects. I would hate to see you place your health in jeopardy on the basis of questionable advice. If it's a second opinion you're after, I recommend seeking a reputable physician who's willing to talk nutrition with you.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 03-27-2018 3:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 03-28-2018 3:26 AM Granny Magda has responded
 Message 584 by Phat, posted 03-31-2018 9:47 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 559 of 606 (830367)
03-27-2018 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by NoNukes
03-27-2018 12:56 PM


Re: God doesn't feed anyone?
I do not take anything I've presented on this thread as totally without flaws or to be trusted completely. I don't take any one expert's opinion as ironclad, that's why I've mentioned many different names. Some of the diets are too extreme in one way or another. I'm trying to find basic elements that work for me personally at the moment. I don't trust standard medicine except in a very limited way, and certainly not on nutrition. I try to avoid pills except when there is no way to do without them, and yes sometimes we sorely need what doctors prescribe, we just don't need EVERYTHING they prescribe. I want a diet that can really produce health if that is possible. The standard diet doesn't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2018 12:56 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2018 7:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10470
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 560 of 606 (830369)
03-27-2018 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 559 by Faith
03-27-2018 7:21 PM


Re: God doesn't feed anyone?
I do not take anything I've presented on this thread as totally without flaws or to be trusted completely.

Great. Please remember that thought the next time you encounter folks who give those experts less credence than you do.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 559 by Faith, posted 03-27-2018 7:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 561 of 606 (830370)
03-27-2018 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Granny Magda
03-27-2018 1:20 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Analysis by minimal lumen diameter of 25 lesions fotind that 6 regressed, 14 remained stable, and 5 progressed.

Isn't it rather amazing that ANY got better? And most at least didn't get worse. I didn't think you could reverse plaque buildup at all but apparently it is possible.

Improvements over twelve years would not be the result of that sort of surgery in people whose diet was unchanged, or even when the diet was minimally modified.

He didn't bother to include a control group, so how can we know?

I thought it was pretty standard knowledge that if the diet isn't radically changed the plaque will just go on building up even after bypass surgery.

Yes, because that's the aim of all this dietary treatment and in case after case you see them getting off their meds as the diet frees them of the need for them. It just wasn't specifically mentioned for this experiment.

It wasn't mentioned because it's not true. It's just some silliness you made up for yourself.

The man who was seen by Lederman in "Forks over Knives" got off most of his meds. So did a couple of people in the film "Wht the Health" and another, though I can't remember which at the moment. Getting off meds is pretty standard for people really doing the plant-based diet. What would be the point otherwise? If the diet really doesn't work why bother?

Yes it wasn't a very good study, (though to be fair he didn't even really present it as a study, he just wanted to try out his diet on a group of people with severe heart disease and as I got it he rather casually asked the other doctors to send him their worst for the trial) and I'd still like to see a better version of it done with a less extreme diet. I'm still only about half way into going all plant-based and have found it's possible to really enjoy this food, it just takes some experimenting.

ABE: And by the way, if the standard doctor-prescribed diet changes hadn't already helped these people doesn't that show the inadequacy of that diet? Or even the fact that doctors really don't know much about nutrition? Esselstyn wanted to try something far more radical. The group he was sent had had 48 heart events among them in the previous eight years, nothing said about dietary changes with their usual doctors.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Granny Magda, posted 03-27-2018 1:20 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by Granny Magda, posted 03-31-2018 11:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13755
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 562 of 606 (830374)
03-28-2018 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by Phat
03-27-2018 5:05 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
I may not know much - but that is why I check with people who know more.

It’s your health at stake and I would advise you to be very careful with it. If your diabetes has progressed to the point where you need insulin you are at risk.


Fair enough. This gets back to my point about intuition versus analytical thinking.

You mean your point that religion doesn’t make sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Phat, posted 03-27-2018 5:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by Phat, posted 03-29-2018 9:20 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 563 of 606 (830375)
03-28-2018 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by Phat
03-27-2018 5:05 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Amazingly I actually agree with PaulK about this, Phat. I've understood that if your blood sugar is at the level where they prescribe insulin it is very serious, and important to keep it controlled with the insulin. If your diet does bring down your blood sugar level THEN you can start getting off the insulin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Phat, posted 03-27-2018 5:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 564 of 606 (830376)
03-28-2018 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 558 by Granny Magda
03-27-2018 7:07 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Its not just Rosedales idea. There are reputable studies that tote the effectiveness of reduced insulin and low carb diets fior diabetics.
Nutritional management is an important component
in the treatment of type 2 diabetes.

Dr.Jason Fung is another advocate of such diets.

He is a kidney expert. Would he not know? Or are you gonna claim that he is just selling books also?

also watch this TED Talk.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Granny Magda, posted 03-27-2018 7:07 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by PaulK, posted 03-28-2018 3:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 586 by Granny Magda, posted 03-31-2018 11:29 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13755
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 565 of 606 (830378)
03-28-2018 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by Phat
03-28-2018 3:26 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
That’s not really surprising to me, even though I’ve got most of my knowledge of the subject discussing things here (including research). Rosedale goes much further.

Phat, I think it would be great if you could control your diabetes with diet. But you have to be careful about it, and watch your blood sugar levels. And, seriously, stay away from the booze - both for the calories and the potential effects on your judgement.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 03-28-2018 3:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 566 of 606 (830391)
03-28-2018 12:10 PM


gardening possibilities
HERE'S a page about the new gizmo called the tower garden, that grows fruits and vegetables "aeroponically" in a vertical space. People even have them in their living rooms, but a patio or balcony is better. Better yet is some yard space of course, but we do what we can however we can and figure if it's a good idea it will grow on people over time.

I keep looking for the perfect short presentation of Annette Larkins and her garden but haven't been able to find one, so here's unfortunately a very long one that nobody will watch, but it starts out showing her garden. The guy talks way too much so it's slow going too. Oh well. He interviews her midway in the film.

She started slowly changing her whole lifestyle 44 years ago and filling her yard with growing foods was part of that. She is now a raw vegan who gets most of her food from the garden. She's 74 in this video, last year I think, so whatever she's doing is clearly very good for her.


    
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 567 of 606 (830392)
03-28-2018 12:29 PM


Hey Frako, here's another gardening possibility: microgreens
I just ran across this, never heard of it before. Microgreens gardening inside your house. There's already a lot more human ingenuity at work on this problem than I had any idea.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by Tangle, posted 03-28-2018 12:46 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5569
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 568 of 606 (830394)
03-28-2018 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 567 by Faith
03-28-2018 12:29 PM


Re: Hey Frako, here's another gardening possibility: microgreens
Good grief...

“74 year old finds Fountain of Youth and looks 40”

and

“How to grow microgreens in your own home and make $100k a year”

Do click-bait headlines ever look spammier than that? I wouldn't even click on that let alone think it worth watching.

You're quite prepared to believe utter crap like that but totally disregard real science. Critical thinking?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 567 by Faith, posted 03-28-2018 12:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 569 of 606 (830395)
03-28-2018 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by Tangle
03-28-2018 12:46 PM


Re: Hey Frako, here's another gardening possibility: microgreens
Uh, you just read the headlines, eh? I hardly noticed them. Spend at least two minutes looking at the videos.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by Tangle, posted 03-28-2018 12:46 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by NoNukes, posted 03-28-2018 1:08 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10470
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 570 of 606 (830399)
03-28-2018 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Faith
03-28-2018 12:52 PM


Re: Hey Frako, here's another gardening possibility: microgreens
Spend at least two minutes looking at the videos.

Nobody rational is going to be convinced by a video. If you could grasp that concept, I suspect that the meta part of this discussion would be over. If something new is presented in a video, that is the starting point for really looking into that something and not the ending point.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Faith, posted 03-28-2018 12:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by Faith, posted 03-28-2018 1:40 PM NoNukes has responded

    
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