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Author Topic:   "Natural" (plant-based) Health Solutions
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 586 of 606 (830485)
03-31-2018 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by Phat
03-28-2018 3:26 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Its not just Rosedales idea.

Oh no. There are reputable people working on diet-based approaches to treating diabetes. I don't dispute that and never have.

There are reputable studies that tote the effectiveness of reduced insulin and low carb diets fior diabetics.

Did you even read the study you cite? None of those patients were even on insulin.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 03-28-2018 3:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 587 of 606 (830486)
03-31-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by Phat
03-31-2018 9:47 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Come argue with me in my thread.

There's nothing to argue. Idon't dispute that diabetes can be treated by diet.

I have science on my side regarding the approach to tackling Type II Diabetes, unless you can find information which disproves Dr.Jason Fung---which I doubt you will find.

You haven't presented anything to refute. I don't argue bare links or Youtube videos.

Just because someone sells books does not automatically qualify them as being a quack.

I didn't say it did. You claimed, quite wrongly, that Rosedale wasn't selling anything. I pointed out that he was and that he is planning on re-entering the supplement industry.

Take this over here at Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption and I again challenge you to refute dr.Fung.

You haven't presented anything to refute.

What do you want me to say? Fung seems more sensible than Rosdale, sure.

Unlike Mercola, Dr.Fung is an actual practicing Doctor.

I have no idea whether he practises or not, but Mercola is a qualified osteopathic doctor for whatever that's worth. He is still a quack. I have no opinion on Fung.

You got me a little on Rosedale, but I still believe his science is sound---apart from his ignorance in his talk which you found.

This is a man who will lie to your face and tell you that there are no drugs to reduce cancer risk when in fact there are many such drugs. Lies are not sound science.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Phat, posted 03-31-2018 9:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by Phat, posted 04-01-2018 12:01 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10804
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 588 of 606 (830517)
04-01-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by Granny Magda
03-31-2018 11:40 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
You haven't presented anything to refute. I don't argue bare links or Youtube videos.
OK, here is my basic argument.

We all agree that diet is an individual issue. For me, the low carbohydrate approach is the best option. My Endocrinologist disagrees with me. In a sense, I am arguing against her. (I see her again Thursday)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by Granny Magda, posted 03-31-2018 11:40 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2018 5:15 AM Phat has responded
 Message 592 by NoNukes, posted 04-02-2018 2:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5748
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 589 of 606 (830525)
04-02-2018 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 588 by Phat
04-01-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Phat writes:

We all agree that diet is an individual issue.

No we don't, that's a rediculous idea. We are omnivores, our bodies rely on us getting enough of the things we need to grow and stay healthy - carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins, fats etc etc. If we eat a varied diet of fruit, vegitables and meat we'll have everything we need and there's no need to even think about it.

If we start fadding about food and cut out chunks of a normal diet or eating far too much or eating some things far more than others we're going to have problems of one sort or another.

There are some people who have genetic or other conditions that means that they can't metabolise food properly and these people need supplements or other interventions but these are relatively rare and require medical advice.

To mess about with weird and wonderful snake oil diets is downright dangerous.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Phat, posted 04-01-2018 12:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by Phat, posted 04-02-2018 9:25 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10804
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 590 of 606 (830529)
04-02-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 589 by Tangle
04-02-2018 5:15 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
I agree that snake oil diets are dangerous. What I will maintain is that low carb diets are the healthiest way treat obesity and specifically type 2 diabetes. For many years the medical establishment was too dense to see this fact. They failed to see that the main cause of insulin resistance was insulin itself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2018 5:15 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2018 12:23 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5748
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 591 of 606 (830536)
04-02-2018 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 590 by Phat
04-02-2018 9:25 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Phat writes:

I agree that snake oil diets are dangerous. What I will maintain is that low carb diets are the healthiest way treat obesity....

No specific faddy diet works - they're ALL snake oil. The only thing that does work in the long run is eating less, eating better and breaking bad habbits.

... and specifically type 2 diabetes.

I know nothing about this but NHS guidance seems sensible to me

quote:
There's nothing you can't eat if you have type 2 diabetes, but you'll have to limit certain foods.
You should:
eat a wide range of foods – including fruit, vegetables and some starchy foods like pasta
keep sugar, fat and salt to a minimum
eat breakfast, lunch and dinner every day – don't skip meals
If you need to change your diet, it might be easier to make small changes every week.

But if it was me I'd take advice from a couple of specialists rather thatn self-medicate.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Phat, posted 04-02-2018 9:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Phat, posted 04-02-2018 5:35 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10695
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 592 of 606 (830542)
04-02-2018 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Phat
04-01-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
We all agree that diet is an individual issue. For me, the low carbohydrate approach is the best option. My Endocrinologist disagrees with me. In a sense, I am arguing against her. (I see her again Thursday)

That is not an argument. That's just you asserting that your doctor is wrong because she could be wrong.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Phat, posted 04-01-2018 12:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10804
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 593 of 606 (830550)
04-02-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Tangle
04-02-2018 12:23 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
But if it was me I'd take advice from a couple of specialists rather thatn self-medicate.

Not I. The Doctors had their chance to manage my diabetes and they only ended up making it worse. To be fair, so did I...I was the one who suggested that I go on long-acting insulin initially many years ago. My logic then was that it would "preserve my beta cells from burning out" but in retrospect, it was a bad decision.

I will, therefore, inform them of what my diet will be, what my medications will be and in what doses. Their only job will be to monitor my results. If they don't accept my terms, they are fired and I shall find Doctors who understand the truth. Dont worry...I will have some Doctor monitoring my blood, but never again will I trust the established medical wisdom. It is simply wrong.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2018 12:23 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2018 7:25 PM Phat has responded
 Message 597 by ringo, posted 04-03-2018 12:34 PM Phat has responded
 Message 604 by NoNukes, posted 04-06-2018 2:36 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5748
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 594 of 606 (830554)
04-02-2018 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by Phat
04-02-2018 5:35 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Oh well, good luck with that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Phat, posted 04-02-2018 5:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by Phat, posted 04-03-2018 8:59 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10804
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 595 of 606 (830564)
04-03-2018 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by Tangle
04-02-2018 7:25 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Tangle writes:

We are omnivores, our bodies rely on us getting enough of the things we need to grow and stay healthy - carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins, fats etc etc. If we eat a varied diet of fruit, vegetables and meat we'll have everything we need and there's no need to even think about it.

Except that our society at large is way out of balance regarding carbohydrates and processed foods. Diabetics (Type II) are specifically insulin resistant and in order to address the problem of insulin resistance, lowering carbohydrates and rebalancing the system is more of a priority than lowering blood sugar numbers by prescribing insulin. I would really rather discuss this in my own thread, however.

Tangle, to Faith writes:

I wouldn't have objections if what you were talking about was based on substantial, medical research - not celebrity crank food fads. Get your information from decent sources-- not youtubes and fanatics.

Some YouTube sources are also scientifically based, like the video that I posted in my thread on Caloric Restriction vs Endocrine System.

Despite your claims that it is magical quick-fix thinking, I see it as valid science and will adjust my diet accordingly. as for good luck I don't believe in luck.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2018 7:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by Tangle, posted 04-03-2018 9:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5748
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 596 of 606 (830566)
04-03-2018 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 595 by Phat
04-03-2018 8:59 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Phat writes:

Despite your claims that it is magical quick-fix thinking, I see it as valid science and will adjust my diet accordingly.

I know what you see it as Phat. But you have a better chance of being right if you go with mainstream medicine that has multiple pieces of research to support it.

as for good luck I don't believe in luck.

You're full of contradictions. If you didn't believe in luck you wouldn't gamble - you'd know the game was rigged.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by Phat, posted 04-03-2018 8:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14627
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 597 of 606 (830578)
04-03-2018 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by Phat
04-02-2018 5:35 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Phat writes:

The Doctors had their chance to manage my diabetes and they only ended up making it worse.


If it got worse, why do you blame that on the doctors?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Phat, posted 04-02-2018 5:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by Phat, posted 04-03-2018 4:20 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10804
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 598 of 606 (830607)
04-03-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by ringo
04-03-2018 12:34 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
If it got worse, why do you blame that on the doctors?
Because they did not warn me that increasing the insulin would, in fact, increase the insulin resistance and cause weight gain. You have to understand that they get paid by the pharmaceutical companies for conducting studies usingnew drugs recently approved by the F.D.A. My Endocrinologist talked me into using Trulicity which I discontinued on my own after observing the way that I felt while taking it and while not taking it. The bottom line as to how I felt all went back to diet. In traditional medicine, Endocrinologists are taught to treat a number. Lowering the blood sugar is their primary goal. Nutrition, though discussed, never is seen as a way to lower the need for insulin but rather to complement it. This type of thinking is what is being challenged by me and I will find out this week whether or not I was right or whether I was again hoping for a chance fantasy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by ringo, posted 04-03-2018 12:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by ringo, posted 04-04-2018 3:26 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14627
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 599 of 606 (830645)
04-04-2018 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by Phat
04-03-2018 4:20 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Phat writes:

The bottom line as to how I felt all went back to diet.


That's in the neighbourhood of the placebo effect, isn't it? If you think the pill is working, you do feel better. But similarly, if you make up your mind that the medical treatment isn't going to work, you're making up your mind to not feel better.

Phat writes:

... I will find out this week whether or not I was right or whether I was again hoping for a chance fantasy.


Watch out for confirmation bias.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Phat, posted 04-03-2018 4:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Phat, posted 04-06-2018 8:20 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10804
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 600 of 606 (830742)
04-06-2018 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-02-2017 11:02 AM


Have Faith It Moves Mountains
I don't know and I don't have the energy to try to find out. Please just ignore whatever I've said, I have to stop posting, I'm tired, I feel rotten, I can't deal with any of this right now although I keep trying. I have to stop. Thanks.

First, it is wise that you recognize your subtle blogging/internet addiction. I wouldn't say that it is a major problem at your age unless it keeps you from doing other things more likely to help you regain physical mobility, mental stimulus, and emotional support. As POGO said, "we have met the enemy and he is us."

Find out everything that you can about severe arthritis, what specifically causes the pain, how it gets worse and what natural plant-based solutions make it any better. Don't ignore the medical solutions and prescriptions that your Doctors give you unless they also have documented and undesirable side effects to your overall health. Quality of life is overall the main concern here, and each of us deals with specific health issues unique to us.

RAZD has perhaps the toughest battle among us here at EvC, and I am sure that he is aware of every useful strategy that he can muster to fight his cancer and the discomforts that come along with it. Keep him in prayer. jar has his vertigo, you have your arthritis and a sluggish metabolism, and I have my Type II Diabetes, sleep apnea, and neural complications. We are all getting older, and though we will never be 30 again, we can be the best that we can realistically be for our respective ages.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-02-2017 11:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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