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Author Topic:   Lucy (Australopithecus)
JonF
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Posts: 3969
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 61 of 88 (820065)
09-16-2017 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 9:52 AM


Re: Fictional illustrations
That plate is from 1905. There were many errors in it. They have been corrected. That plate is no longer relevant other than to historians.

Let's see your evidence for your claim that "Invented for one purpose only. Creationists".

Your aura of impartiality is slipping.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 9:52 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 62 of 88 (820099)
09-16-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 9:23 AM


Re: still pushing this creationist jargon
Porkncheese writes:

Anything inconclusive Im rejecting. As I would in engineering.


How strong do you have to make a bridge? There is no "conclusive" answer to that, is there? You can not build a bridge that will absolutely never fail under any conceivable circumstances. You have to build a bridge that is strong enough to stand up to what is likely to happen.

The Theory of Evolution is actually much stronger than that. It has withstood everything that anybody has ever brought against it. And more relevantly, it's the only bridge we have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 9:23 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 63 of 88 (820136)
09-16-2017 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 9:52 AM


Re: Fictional illustrations
PnC writes:

This idea is total garbage.

It contains a lot of mistakes - very grievous ones at that. But what point are you trying to make?

Is it that some very old ideas were wrong? Do you think any modern biologist thinks that that sort of thing is correct? How many doctors still bleed their patients do you think? How many don't bother washing their hands before operating? Scientific knowledge progresses by throwing out poor ideas and adding better ones - it's a process of continuous learning.

To find that sort of stuff and think it worthy of posting tells us only that you're spending a lot of time getting your 'information' from creationist web sites. Now why would you do that as a scientist? Do you go to religious sites to find out how to build bridges? Does the fact that a series of 19th century cast iron bridges failed under dynamic load mean that we can't make modern bridges out of modern materials?

Your reasoning is all over the place and heavily influenced by people with primitive belief systems.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 9:52 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Porkncheese
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: 08-25-2017


(1)
Message 64 of 88 (820147)
09-16-2017 3:04 PM


Confession
I feel horrible for what I said to my parents a year ago. My attack on their faith came from every angle. I was disrespectful, hateful, inconsiderate and totally fucked. It hurt them. And for wat. This bullshit of a debate.

We havenít spoken since. And although iv tried to justify it to myself in the last 3 months I canít. Iím a terrible person fuckin hell.

Iv learnt what this ToE is all about. U canít reason with a group of retarted fuckin apes with dogmatic views. And becoming frustrated with you retarted apes with tiny cranium capacities is in itself stupid of myself.

I was dumb to accept this shit without question to begin with. And u bunch of old men 40s and 50s spinning the same old childish shit. Being 19yo and agnostic yaíll total fuckin liars. Living in a fairytale pipe dream.

Fuckin narrow minded knuckle heads lacking any dignity or culture. Spinning shit only to oppose religion.

Now my conscious is killing me. Iím the prodigal son. Must make peace asap.

Well at least you dick faces helped me see this for wat it really is i guess


Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Coyote, posted 09-16-2017 3:15 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2017 3:30 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-16-2017 4:22 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 2:24 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 69 by anglagard, posted 09-17-2017 9:17 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 09-18-2017 8:37 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 85 by Larni, posted 09-20-2017 8:42 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6012
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 65 of 88 (820151)
09-16-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Confession
Houston, we have a meltdown!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 3:04 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 66 of 88 (820153)
09-16-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Confession
Classic denial.

Take some time out and think about it carefully. Your parents' beliefs have nothing to do with whether the ToE is true or not or whether you can believe in god and also accept the ToE.

You're beginning an independent life, it requires independent thought. Make your peace with your parents but keep religion and Darwin out of it. There's more to life.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 3:04 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 67 of 88 (820155)
09-16-2017 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Confession
For what its worth--here is my 2 cents ...

First, much of what you say is true. We are a bunch of old (well...aging) men who sit around here in our spare time and debate arguments largely centered on science vs faith. Many of us are highly educated and know the science.

Critical thinking is encouraged. Biblical Creationism is often attacked and creationists are challenged to provide evidence.

But let me address your situation. Sounds like your parents have a traditional faith outlook on life, yet are not extreme apart from that. As is normal, you rebelled against being a mere clone of your family and became agnostic while you sorted out your feelings and beliefs. Quite common at age 19. I respect that you stuck it out as long as you have...and implore you again to spend more time studying. Also, humble yourself and ask your parents to forgive your tirade...they only want to see you humble and not proud. What they have taught you, while not scientific, is real...it comes from the heart and soul, regardless of whether you end up a believer in God and the Bible or whether you continue to question it. They sound like decent folks and I will pray for you and your relationship with them.

The guys here have thick skin and challenged you without knowledge of your internal conflict between emotions and facts. They all want to teach younger people (as well as older people) how to think dispassionately about science and methodology...they are in no way attacking you personally unless they are teasing...which they sometimes do.

My advice? Love your parents and study hard. You are on the right track, whether you end up being a scientist, a teacher, or even a pastor.

Perhaps you came here not to learn about the ToE or science, but to resolve the cognitive dissonance you felt existed between your parent's faith and your own questions. Be honest with them. Tell them that yes, you can be a stubborn one but you have no intention of disrespecting them or their beliefs.

They love you regardless, I'm quite sure. Carry on...and study hard!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 3:04 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(3)
Message 68 of 88 (820204)
09-17-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Confession
Porkncheese writes:

I feel horrible for what I said to my parents a year ago.


It's easy to imagine how you talk to your parents. No doubt you called them "retarted fuckin apes with dogmatic views", "retarted apes with tiny cranium capacities", "fuckin liars", "Fuckin narrow minded knuckle heads lacking any dignity or culture", "dick faces", etc.

Maybe some day you'll learn that your anger comes from within, not from the people you're angry at.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 3:04 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2170
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


(2)
Message 69 of 88 (820232)
09-17-2017 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Confession
Porkncheese writes:

I feel horrible for what I said to my parents a year ago. My attack on their faith came from every angle. I was disrespectful, hateful, inconsiderate and totally fucked. It hurt them. And for wat. This bullshit of a debate.

We havenít spoken since. And although iv tried to justify it to myself in the last 3 months I canít. Iím a terrible person fuckin hell.

Sincerely ask them for forgiveness. If they are remotely as Christian as you say they are then they are compelled to forgive. After all forgiveness is the central message of those "red words" in the KJV. Everything else is mostly either setting up that climatic part of the story, or largely bogus commentary and history which often is in conflict with both those red words and verifiable facts.

Iv learnt what this ToE is all about. U canít reason with a group of retarted fuckin apes with dogmatic views. And becoming frustrated with you retarted apes with tiny cranium capacities is in itself stupid of myself.

I was dumb to accept this shit without question to begin with. And u bunch of old men 40s and 50s spinning the same old childish shit. Being 19yo and agnostic yaíll total fuckin liars. Living in a fairytale pipe dream.

Taking out your anger at yourself on others who are vastly better informed about science and in many cases religion will not help in your journey to ultimately forgive yourself. Only asking for your parents forgiveness can do that.

Also at 19, you know a lot less than you think you do. Admitting this is the first step toward wisdom. Another is to manage your anger issues but that comes easier with time as those raging male hormones stop overriding every thought and piece of advice provided by those who have "been there done that."

Fuckin narrow minded knuckle heads lacking any dignity or culture. Spinning shit only to oppose religion.

You know that is a false statement. Jar, however cranky he may occasionally be due to frustration, is not only pretty wise but also the very epitome of a Christian according to our conversations. And that is just one example.

Now my conscious is killing me. Iím the prodigal son. Must make peace asap.

You must try, or you will never forgive yourself and will never be truly happy.

I wish you the best of luck in your journey toward forgiveness, knowledge, and hopefully someday with hard work - wisdom.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 3:04 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1802
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 70 of 88 (820240)
09-18-2017 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Confession
Trying to change the subject I see.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 3:04 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 10:27 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 71 of 88 (820243)
09-18-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Pressie
09-18-2017 8:37 AM


Re: Confession
Perhaps this was what was on his mind all along. He wanted to find a gentler way to explain his questioning to his parents and was sorry that he had snapped at them.

Not every student that comes to our forum is out to prove anything about creationism nor to become better informed about ToE or other science. Some folk just like to come and hear an opinion on life, Pressie. You know that!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 09-18-2017 8:37 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 72 of 88 (820244)
09-18-2017 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
09-15-2017 6:01 PM


Phat writes:

Next question: Is there only one way to do the science or are there several ways? If several, must the conclusions match up?

The only way to do science is through the scientific method.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 6:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 73 of 88 (820245)
09-18-2017 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
09-15-2017 6:07 PM


Re: Compare and Contrast
Phat writes:

I often observe that there is a prejudice against creationism. The reasoning is that creationists are not scientists--or so we are told. Perhaps we should compare and contrast methodologies used in forming conclusions---to see if secular science and creationism science are using the same tools and methods.

It is the same prejudice that we hold towards all liars and con men, and it isn't because they are not scientists.

Also, if it is science then they need to be using the scientific method. Putting qualifiers like "secular" and "creationism" before science is just nonsense. Either it is science or it is not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 6:07 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 74 of 88 (820246)
09-18-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Porkncheese
09-15-2017 10:08 PM


Re: there is no culture of truth or honesty in Creationism.
Porkncheese writes:

Mate. Who's character have I attacked? Where?

In every post where you accuse scientists of "hysteria" or "speculations".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Porkncheese, posted 09-15-2017 10:08 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 10:45 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 75 of 88 (820247)
09-18-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Porkncheese
09-15-2017 11:15 PM


Re: creationist vs athiest radicals
Porkncheese writes:

I don't think anyone who has very firm beliefs can be objective here, weather they're creationist or atheist. Ideally they should be agnostic with no disposition at all.

Why? If the evidence points to a conclusion why shouldn't we accept that conclusion? Should we just pretend the evidence doesn't exist?

With Lucy we have a fossil species with a mixture of ape and modern human features. We have a theory that predicts such creatures existed in the past. Why shouldn't we accept this as evidence in support of the theory?

Creationists claim all the fossils to be either man or another species of ape.
And by only observing the fossils one can interpret it any way they like realy.

The problem is that creationists don't interpret fossils. They have no criteria for determining if a fossil is ape or human. All they have is claims.

The hardcore atheists (not you) claim everything is scientifically proven, that we know it all but there are variations in opinions between evolutionists as well.
For example this link is an article from the scientific journal, Nature.

All of the atheists on this site, including myself, are careful to never claim that any theory is absolutely proven. Once again, you are trying to attack the character of people on this forum instead of focusing on the actual science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Porkncheese, posted 09-15-2017 11:15 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
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