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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
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Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 211 of 1283 (821530)
10-09-2017 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by kbertsche
10-08-2017 11:16 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
quote:

God's DESIRE is that all would be saved (2 Pet 3:9). But people don't want salvation (Rom 1:18-32); they prefer darkness to light (Jn 3:19). Left to their own, no one would be saved. So, by His mercy, God has DETERMINED to save some people, even though none of us deserve it.

While the assertions are disputable I want to concentrate on the logic. If God genuinely wants to save everyone, and if it is completely down to God, with no human involvement in the process at all, why isn't everyone saved ?

quote:

Why does God only save some, but not all? Is He being unjust? It may seem so, but we can't see the whole picture. Paul addressed this apparent injustice directly in Rom 9:14-24, implying that it may be too hard for us to understand, but that God's actions are perfectly just.

At this stage I am not even considering the question of justice, just why God should permit something contrary to his desire. (But let us also note that without Free Will, the Fall also becomes entirely God's responsibility - which has further implications)

quote:

Again, I see this apparent contradiction between God's choice and our free will as analogous to wave-particle duality.

If it is just a matter of perspective as Faith suggested then it isn't.

But I believe that God's desire to save all, or just a relative few is a key difference which isn't really addressed even if it were a true analog.

quote:

In the same way, if the biblical data is clear on an issue of apparent contradiction, we need to be honest with the biblical data, whether it is the dual human-divine nature of Jesus, the unity-Trinity of God, or God's choice and our free will regarding salvation.

In the case of Physics being honest to the data means admitting that our models are incorrect, approximations that work only in certain circumstances. We cannot assume that the data is wrong once it has been strongly confirmed. However I do not see why being honest to the Bible requires the assumption of inerrancy - I would say the opposite. That honesty to the Bible requires discarding the notion of inerrancy. The contrived attempts to reconcile the two differing accounts of Judas' death being an instance in point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by kbertsche, posted 10-08-2017 11:16 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by kbertsche, posted 10-09-2017 12:01 PM PaulK has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10122
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 212 of 1283 (821531)
10-09-2017 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by kbertsche
10-08-2017 11:16 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
"Again, I see this apparent contradiction between God's choice and our free will as analogous to wave-particle duality"

This appears to be short for saying, "I don't understand how this logical impossibility exists, but I'm going to accept it".

Calvinism is an unfortunate bit of doctrine, which does, in my opinion, have the fact of excusing behavior from God that we would never tolerate from another human. And there are certainly Biblical verses that are difficult to accept in light of the doctrine. Not sure why it is so popular.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 10-09-2017 6:48 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29779
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 213 of 1283 (821534)
10-09-2017 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by NoNukes
10-09-2017 1:02 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
NoNukes writes:

Calvinism is an unfortunate bit of doctrine, which does, in my opinion, have the fact of excusing behavior from God that we would never tolerate from another human. And there are certainly Biblical verses that are difficult to accept in light of the doctrine. Not sure why it is so popular.

Because it says that all the folk in the Calvinist Chapter of Club Christian are the ones God chose; the Elect. A popular bumper sticker is the "Not perfect, just forgiven".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2017 1:02 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Paboss
Junior Member
Posts: 19
Joined: 10-01-2017
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 214 of 1283 (821535)
10-09-2017 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:42 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:

There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.

Yes, Faith, it is Pr 26:4 (KJV): "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him". But don't worry, because right affter it says Pr 26:5 (KJV): "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit". So it's alright for you to answer us. You actually might want to answer just half of us fools to be safe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 8:45 AM Paboss has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 215 of 1283 (821539)
10-09-2017 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Paboss
10-09-2017 7:50 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
You have to decide which kind of fool you're dealing with in order to know whether to answer or not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Paboss, posted 10-09-2017 7:50 AM Paboss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Paboss, posted 10-09-2017 9:19 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 219 by Percy, posted 10-09-2017 10:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Paboss
Junior Member
Posts: 19
Joined: 10-01-2017
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 216 of 1283 (821544)
10-09-2017 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
10-09-2017 8:45 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
I see you can give smart answers when you don't base your thinking on a literal understanding of the bible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 8:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16324
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 217 of 1283 (821546)
10-09-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
10-08-2017 8:55 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:

Phat, I started the policy of refusing to answer or even read posts from people who attack me personally and won't apologize. That policy is still in force and now your obnoxious personal attack on me means I'm ignoring you too!

What's this? Phat obnoxiously and personally attacked you? How dare he! I'm going to tear apart his heinous Message 201 limb from limb:

Phat in Message 201 writes:

The key issue is honesty versus silence. If people see us as honest they will be more likely to forgive us for disagreeing with them. If they only get silence and refusal to answer, it shows poorly on the character of Christ. IMHO anyway.

Hmmm. If there's an obnoxious personal attack in there somewhere, I'm not seeing it. You seem to be continuing your pattern of finding any excuse you can to not answer any questions or address any issues. When you think the problem is everyone else it's time to look in the mirror. Are you sure the devil isn't deceiving you, because if anyone were to ask people on this board which person is the most Christian in spirit, you're the last person who would come to mind.

If you keep crossing people off your list pretty soon there won't be anybody left but the Father, the Son and the holy ghost, and even they'd better watch their step.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 8:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16324
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 218 of 1283 (821547)
10-09-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
10-08-2017 9:00 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:

My understanding is that the Israelites represent God's own army against evil,...

Where does this "understanding" come from?

...and that when Jesus returns all those who belong to Him will become part of that army against the demonic hordes that have ruled the world until then.

What evidence do you have of "demonic hordes", or even of demons?

He could always do all of it Himself, He doesn't need anyone.

This was the question GDR was asking. If He could do it himself, and He doesn't need anyone, then why doesn't He do it himself?

He could also send all of us to Hell but He chose to send a Savior.

But according to you He's sending almost all of us to Hell anyway. Is this a 1%'er kind of thing, or is it even less than that?

There is no value to a Bible that is not inerrant.

This is clearly false. There is obvious value to everything in the Bible that is true.

"All scripture is God-breathed" is enough evidence for me.

This is scripture commenting on itself, i.e., circular reasoning. That's not evidence and shouldn't be sufficient for anyone.

And God has the power to do it.

And God has the power to do what? You sure love your pronouns! Are you saying God has the power to make the Bible inerrant? In that he obviously failed.

If I had to listen to preachers picking and choosing the way you do I would never be a Christian at all.

All the evidence argues against you being a Christian.

You accuse me of worshiping the Bible which is totally false,...

Seems totally true to me. Except for the stuff you make up, the Bible seems to be the sole guiding force in your life.

...but what you do by picking and choosing is put your own fallen mind in the place of God.

To the extent that you're right about "fallen minds" (you're not), your mind is as fallen as anyone else's. More so, in fact.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 9:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16324
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 219 of 1283 (821548)
10-09-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
10-09-2017 8:45 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:

You have to decide which kind of fool you're dealing with in order to know whether to answer or not.

Oh, you're definitely the kind of fool I'd answer. You're an endless font of error in need of correction.

As Paboss's Message 214 makes clear, you are again wrong about what the Bible says. There is no proverb "that advises not answering fools." The Bible passage is from Proverbs 26:4-5, this is KJV:

quote:
26:4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. 5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

And here we have yet another Bible contradiction. 26:4 tells you to not answer a fool according to his folly, and 26:5 tells you the opposite. But neither says not to answer a fool. They both tell you how to answer a fool, and neither advises silence.

Of course, if we abandon the KJV and go to a more reasonable translation we get something that actually makes sense. This is from the Easy to Read version of the Bible over at Bible Gateway:

quote:
There is no good way to answer fools when they say something stupid. If you answer them, then you, too, will look like a fool. If you don’t answer them, they will think they are smart.

But again, the passage doesn't advise silence. It instead presents a conundrum, how to answer a fool "when they say something stupid," a problem we often face in discussions with you.

Let me guess who you think should make the decisions about who are fools and who are not. Would that be you?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 8:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 10-09-2017 11:34 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10239
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 220 of 1283 (821555)
10-09-2017 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Percy
10-09-2017 10:43 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Here is an interesting article from Charisma News. Is Giving Someone the ‘Silent Treatment’ Really Like Witchcraft?

quote:
"Did you know the silent treatment (which is the stubborn refusal to talk to someone, especially after a recent argument or disagreement) is a form of witchcraft? Witchcraft is sometimes a spiritual force, but it's also a work of the flesh listed in Galatians. Intimidation is a form of fleshly witchcraft. Purposely ignoring people to 'teach them a lesson' can be a form of fleshly witchcraft. Manipulation tactics, like pouting and crying to get people to do what you want or make them feel guilty, are forms of fleshly witchcraft. I can tell you this, folks won't get far with Spirit-led Christians playing those sorts of flesh-driven games. We'll pray for you but we won't bow to manipulation. 1 Samuel 15:23... Rebellion to God's Word is the sin of witchcraft. Trying to punish people with manipulation is rebellion. Can somebody say amen?"
"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry" (1 Sam. 15:23)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Percy, posted 10-09-2017 10:43 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 11:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 225 by jar, posted 10-09-2017 12:59 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 1283 (821557)
10-09-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
10-09-2017 11:34 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Your personal attack is worse than ever. If there's any witchcraft going on here it's on your side for condemning me out of your own false doctrines. You could apologize, that would be the right thing to do. But then so could Percy but like you he thinks he's in the right. You are both in violation of the rule against commenting on the person and he supposedly made the rule. The way I get talked about here is something truly evil.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 10-09-2017 11:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Percy, posted 10-09-2017 1:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11850
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 222 of 1283 (821558)
10-09-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by kbertsche
10-07-2017 2:18 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Re the apparent contradiction between Calvinism and Arminianism:
jar writes:

If both positions are in the Bible then that is a contradiction.

It really is that simple Faith.


Maybe not. If my physics book says that photons are both particles and waves, is it contradicting itself? Or is this really true, and our limited perspective is misleading us?

Yes, the wave-particle duality is a contradiction and is referred to as a paradox.

The Calvinism-Arminianism paradox is also a contraction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by kbertsche, posted 10-07-2017 2:18 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1424
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 223 of 1283 (821560)
10-09-2017 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by PaulK
10-09-2017 12:31 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
PaulK writes:


While the assertions are disputable I want to concentrate on the logic. If God genuinely wants to save everyone, and if it is completely down to God, with no human involvement in the process at all, why isn't everyone saved ?


An excellent question. But I don't believe I can give you a very satisfying answer. Scripture doesn't completely spell out how God chooses people for salvation.

But there are a few points that the Bible IS clear on:
1) God does not force people to act against their will; He honors their decision to reject Him (Rom 1:18-32).
2) God does NOT choose people based on their own merits or deeds (Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
3) We can't really understand why God chooses some and not others, but we are assured that He is perfectly just. (Rom 9:14-24)

Sorry I can't give you a better answer. Ultimately, I just accept the biblical evidence, even though it seems counterintuitive (much in the same way that I accept particle-wave duality, even though it seems counterintuitive).


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2017 12:31 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2017 12:45 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 224 of 1283 (821562)
10-09-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by kbertsche
10-09-2017 12:01 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
quote:

An excellent question. But I don't believe I can give you a very satisfying answer. Scripture doesn't completely spell out how God chooses people for salvation.

The question isn't how God chooses but why God would choose some and not others at all.

quote:

PaulK writes:

While the assertions are disputable I want to concentrate on the logic. If God genuinely wants to save everyone, and if it is completely down to God, with no human involvement in the process at all, why isn't everyone saved ?

An excellent question. But I don't believe I can give you a very satisfying answer. Scripture doesn't completely spell out how God chooses people for salvation.
But there are a few points that the Bible IS clear on:
1) God does not force people to act against their will; He honors their decision to reject Him (Rom 1:18-32).
2) God does NOT choose people based on their own merits or deeds (Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
3) We can't really understand why God chooses some and not others, but we are assured that He is perfectly just. (Rom 9:14-24)


Point 1 places a requirement on us, and assumes that our will is meaningful and therefore would seem to contradict Calvinism

Point 2 offers two references which don't really address the issue. They don't give any reason why God would refuse to save someone despite wanting to. (Indeed, they are compatible with Arminianism but they don't outright state that anything is required from us)

Point 3 in proposing that some people have been created only to be destroyed, it denies that God wants to save everyone. Which would seem to be a contradiction. (Also "God can do whatever he like to you and you have no right to complain" isn't much of a defence of God's justice.)

So we don't have anything that resolves the issue at all. One point propose a reason, but is incompatible with Calvinism, another just contradicts the idea that God wants to save everyone and the other two say nothing to the point.

quote:

Sorry I can't give you a better answer. Ultimately, I just accept the biblical evidence, even though it seems counterintuitive (much in the same way that I accept particle-wave duality, even though it seems counterintuitive)

Wave particle duality is not so problematic. It's counter-intuitive but doesn't seem to be inconsistent. However the idea that God wants to save everyone does seem to contradict the idea that God created people with the express purpose of not saving them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by kbertsche, posted 10-09-2017 12:01 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by GDR, posted 10-09-2017 1:40 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 10-09-2017 4:16 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29779
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 225 of 1283 (821563)
10-09-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
10-09-2017 11:34 AM


why Spirit-led Christians are so utterly ineffective.
LOL

Anytime someone today brings up the topic of Witchcraft the only proper response is to laugh at them and when they say something as silly as "Intimidation is a form of fleshly witchcraft. Purposely ignoring people to 'teach them a lesson' can be a form of fleshly witchcraft. Manipulation tactics, like pouting and crying to get people to do what you want or make them feel guilty, are forms of fleshly witchcraft. " which explains why "Spirit-led Christians" are the prime example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 10-09-2017 11:34 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 10-09-2017 1:39 PM jar has responded

  
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