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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 241 of 1273 (821655)
10-10-2017 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Tangle
10-09-2017 5:51 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
People are just not like this.
What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Tangle, posted 10-09-2017 5:51 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 3:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5244
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 242 of 1273 (821656)
10-10-2017 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phat
10-10-2017 2:25 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Phat writes:

What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1?

Of course we don't. Life is far, far more complex than that. We are born with predispositions and we're conditioned by the environment and society we find ourselves brought up in. We don't just choose to be either naughty or nice, like a computer programme. Nor do we stay in one format all the time. We're not binary. GDR language here is pure religious babble that bears no resemblance to how we know we work....

quote:
I think that the point is that ultimately we all choose to yearn for life that is based on unselfish love no matter how bad we are at it, or we succumb to a life that is about is about looking after our own needs and interests above all else

'...choose to yearn for a life based on unselfish love' Do me a favour....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 2:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16316
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 243 of 1273 (821661)
10-10-2017 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by GDR
10-09-2017 3:38 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
GDR writes:

Well we know that there is a battle going on between good and evil.

To me good and evil are highly subjective, and they're conceptual with no tangible reality as "things" that could do battle. Contextualizing by example to the conundrums of daily life doesn't change that.

The Christian hope and belief is that ultimately good fully triumphs as it did on the cross...etc...

I can accept Jesus' message, but not the narrative that goes with it, and now I find myself more on Tangle's path. To embrace a particular interpretation of any particular Biblical narrative is a conceit that you've chosen the correct version of God while others have not. It is often said about religion that they cannot all be true, and that likely all are false. This seems so overtly self-evident that many of us are surprised that religions exist at all. But human nature being what it is, many of us accept all the obvious fictions, and one of the most important is that there is such a thing as the one, right and true religion, and that they have found it.

For most people believing a religion is not a choice they make themselves but one that is made for them in childhood and then enforced by their religious, cultural and societal environment. I think you have no choice but to believe your version of Christianity, but I thought what you said earlier about following the teachings of Jesus or Buddha or Gandhi had a lot to recommend it.

Philosophy and theology don’t have the benefit of particle colliders.

Well, yes, exactly, and the reason why is a key point. They're missing the tools of evidence for a very good reason - they're fictional.

If we also claim that God wants us to commit genocide and public stoning it even goes even beyond simply dishonouring Jesus on the cross. It essentially says that Jesus got it wrong and that we know better.

Okay, now I understand your point about inerrantism dishonoring Jesus on the cross, though it doesn't alter my rejection of the Jesus stories. The moral spirit of Jesus (or Buddha or Gandhi) doesn't really need a religion.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by GDR, posted 10-09-2017 3:38 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 11:15 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 261 by GDR, posted 10-10-2017 8:39 PM Percy has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 244 of 1273 (821662)
10-10-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Percy
10-10-2017 8:58 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Tangle writes:

We don't just choose to be either naughty or nice, like a computer programme. Nor do we stay in one format all the time. We're not binary. GDR language here is pure religious babble that bears no resemblance to how we know we work....


I'm starting to agree with the idea that there is no black and white dichotomy in human morality. I used to firmly believe in the all or nothing pronouncement of saved or lost but am now more comfortable with the honest realization that I could be both!

Percy writes:

To embrace a particular interpretation of any particular Biblical narrative is a conceit that you've chosen the correct version of God while others have not.


I used to defend this accusation by stating that one has to either stand for something or they will fall for anything! but I am now realizing that I actually stand for many things and fall for many things every day and that it is overall a learning process.
GDR writes:

Philosophy and theology don’t have the benefit of particle colliders.


Percy writes:

Well, yes, exactly, and the reason why is a key point. They're missing the tools of evidence for a very good reason - they're fictional.

I'm not entirely in agreement there. Critics will say that I need my beliefs as a crutch and I will concede that they are right. I simply could never even imagine being an atheist! The implications are chilling to me personally. This does not imply that I don't respect them, however. And again...here we go with the whole us and them thing. I keep needing to remind myself that it is WE.

And the word fictional is illogical to my conclusions. *hugs teddy bear tighter!*
Perhaps I am scared that if I dont stand for Jesus I will fall for atheism! *ponders*

Percy writes:

The moral spirit of Jesus (or Buddha or Gandhi) doesn't really need a religion.

This point agrees with Ringos mantra that values the message above the messenger. My response has always been to declare that the messenger is the message, and I think that GDR agrees with that as well. Great discussion, though!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Percy, posted 10-10-2017 8:58 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 11:20 AM Phat has responded
 Message 270 by Stile, posted 10-11-2017 11:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29775
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 245 of 1273 (821663)
10-10-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
10-10-2017 11:15 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:

My response has always been to declare that the messenger is the message, and I think that GDR agrees with that as well.

Yet you can never explain what that even means.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 11:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:07 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13973
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 246 of 1273 (821667)
10-10-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:42 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:

There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.


What it says is:
1. Don't let fools get away with broadcasting foolishness.
2. Don't be foolish in refuting foolishness.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 247 of 1273 (821668)
10-10-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
10-10-2017 11:20 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
jar writes:

Yet you can never explain what that even means.

True, but I'm getting better. In addition, I feel that I can almost explain what you think it means. Please don't tell me that I need to throw the messenger away however. That always causes me great anxiety.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 11:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 12:18 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13973
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 248 of 1273 (821669)
10-10-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phat
10-10-2017 2:25 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Phat writes:

What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1?


Most of us do both in the same day. You can donate to charity and buy yourself a new toy with the same chequebook.

There are not two separate groups of people, which is why God choosing one group makes no sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 2:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29775
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 249 of 1273 (821670)
10-10-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:07 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:

Please don't tell me that I need to throw the messenger away however. That always causes me great anxiety.

Then maybe you need to try to figure out why that causes great anxiety.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:07 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:26 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 250 of 1273 (821673)
10-10-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
10-10-2017 12:18 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
For one thing, it means that I have to do the whole job myself without any help. Its like when I was a kid and boasted that my Dad could beat up your Dad and yet deep down probably knew that my Dad would never show up to validate my aggression.

I realize that you believe that true Christianity is not easy,...it is hard work and we are charged to do it ourselves.

It would be nice to get some help though. When I was growing up my Dad always had a spare $20.00 bill for me when I needed one. Why can't God be the same way? Does'nt anybody realize that I'm getting older and weaker and can't do what I once did? What sort of a tough love God do we have, anyway?

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 12:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 12:32 PM Phat has responded
 Message 257 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 1:07 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5244
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 251 of 1273 (821675)
10-10-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:26 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:

It would be nice to get some help though. When I was growing up my Dad always had a spare $20.00 bill for me when I needed one. Why can't God be the same way?

It's obvious Phat, your dad, his love for you and the $20 bill are real and they exist.

What you call God is not real and does not exist. If he did, the $20 bill would have been unnecessary, the sky daddy would have sorted it first because his imaginary love for you is infinite.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:40 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 252 of 1273 (821679)
10-10-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Tangle
10-10-2017 12:32 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Thanks for that dose of cynicism! Makes me feel a whole lot better! You believe that there is no rescuer. And if I give up hope I too can be glad to be in touch with reality, eh? How encouraging!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 12:32 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:46 PM Phat has responded
 Message 255 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 12:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13973
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 253 of 1273 (821681)
10-10-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:40 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:

You believe that there is no rescuer.


Even Noah had to build his own ark.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 254 of 1273 (821683)
10-10-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ringo
10-10-2017 12:46 PM


And yet another thing for the record
Noah didn't have to do anything! He chose to do it because he was obviously an animal lover. The rest of us drowned though.

This whole argument is all about having to do everything ourselves or receiving help.

I vote help. That's one reason I am a believer.

It seems that counting on people isnt enough.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5244
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 255 of 1273 (821684)
10-10-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:40 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:

Thanks for that dose of cynicism!

It's not cynicism; it's just the way it is. You know that a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist?

Makes me feel a whole lot better!

Well it should, understanding that there is no arsehole looking down on you threatening the worst torture imaginable just because you got born is rather positive.

You believe that there is no rescuer. And if I give up hope I too can be glad to be in touch with reality, eh? How encouraging!

I believe that I'm not drowning so I'm not in need of rescue. As soon as you realise that, it's all fair sailing. Why do you need to give up hope? Just get on with living a good life - it's not a complicated thing, religion has made a mess of your head. If there is a god, just living the best life you can MUST be enough for him - if it's something else then he's not the god you believe in anyway.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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