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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 256 of 1283 (821685)
10-10-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:50 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:

Noah didnt have to do anything!


And neither do you. You can choose to drown.

But if Noah didn't want to drown he !@#$ing well DID have to build his own ark - and so do you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29787
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 257 of 1283 (821686)
10-10-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:26 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:

It would be nice to get some help though. When I was growing up my Dad always had a spare $20.00 bill for me when I needed one. Why can't God be the same way? Does'nt anybody realize that I'm getting older and weaker and can't do what I once did? What sort of a tough love God do we have, anyway?

Yet you have said that how your dad treated you enabled and encouraged your feeling of entitlement.

And that also led to your gambling...that you deserved to win the lottery.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 2:14 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10239
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 258 of 1283 (821688)
10-10-2017 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by jar
10-10-2017 1:07 PM


Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
This is all true. The question we had, however, was whether the messenger was, in fact, the point of the message or whether we ourselves were the point of the message. Can we do it without Him? Was that His message all along?

Edited by Phat, : sub title


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 1:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 3:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 260 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 4:10 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5252
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 259 of 1283 (821690)
10-10-2017 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Phat
10-10-2017 2:14 PM


Re: Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
Phat writes:

This is all true. The question we had, however, was whether the messenger was, in fact, the point of the message or whether we ourselves were the point of the message. Can we do it without Him? Was that His message all along?

'Do as you would be done by' is all you need to know. That covers it entirely. Stick to that and forget everything else, it's just causing you unnecessary problems.

"Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets" (Matthew 7:12 NCV, see also Luke 6:31).


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 2:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29787
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 260 of 1283 (821691)
10-10-2017 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Phat
10-10-2017 2:14 PM


Re: Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
Phat writes:

The question we had, however, was whether the messenger was, in fact, the point of the message or whether we ourselves were the point of the message.

Sorry but I am quite sure WE never had that question. I certainly didn't and have no idea what that would even mean.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 2:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 10-11-2017 8:33 AM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 261 of 1283 (821693)
10-10-2017 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Percy
10-10-2017 8:58 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Percy writes:

To me good and evil are highly subjective, and they're conceptual with no tangible reality as "things" that could do battle.

I agree that in many issues there is considerable subjectivity involved. I see it this way. Evil is when we do things that motivated completely out of self image at the expense of others. Good is when do exercise self sacrifice for the good of someone else.

Within that are many grey areas but in general that's how I see it.

Percy writes:

I can accept Jesus' message, but not the narrative that goes with it, and now I find myself more on Tangle's path. To embrace a particular interpretation of any particular Biblical narrative is a conceit that you've chosen the correct version of God while others have not.

Isn't that like pretty much anything else that people disagree on? I think that other religions have much to tell us and at least all the major ones have the Golden Rule in them somewhere. Religion is man's attempt at trying to understand the nature of the god or the gods that are involved in our lives, and what that means to our life. That of course based on the assumption that a god or gods exist.

The thing that distinguishes Christianity is the claim that God's nature was perfectly embodied in the man Jesus and that God confirmed this to be the case by resurrecting Him.

I have no doubt that much of what I believe is probably wrong but I'm sure that's true of everyone. As I see it, God's desire for us is focused on the heart and my signature pretty much sums it all up.

Percy writes:

For most people believing a religion is not a choice they make themselves but one that is made for them in childhood and then enforced by their religious, cultural and societal environment. I think you have no choice but to believe your version of Christianity, but I thought what you said earlier about following the teachings of Jesus or Buddha or Gandhi had a lot to recommend it.


I have read a lot of theology and as a result I now believe a number of things that I would have disagreed on in the past.

Percy writes:

They're missing the tools of evidence for a very good reason - they're fictional.

This is in reference to philosophy and theology. We can look at the basic question. Why do I exist? I know that I have conscious thoughts, others have studied evolutionary processes and have learned a certain amount about how we got here and so on, but the philosophical/theological question of why we exist does not have empirical evidence. We pretty much all come to some conclusion. Either we are the result of intelligence, completely mindless processes or we can even conclude that as there is no empirical evidence just come to the conclusion that we just can't know. It is however something that can be studied and discussed.

Percy writes:

The moral spirit of Jesus (or Buddha or Gandhi) doesn't really need a religion.


Sure, but then where does the sense of morality come from in a materialistic world?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Percy, posted 10-10-2017 8:58 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by granpa, posted 10-10-2017 9:02 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 263 by jar, posted 10-11-2017 6:59 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 10-11-2017 8:06 AM GDR has responded

    
granpa
Member
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 262 of 1283 (821694)
10-10-2017 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by GDR
10-10-2017 8:39 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
GDR writes:

Sure, but then where does the sense of morality come from in a materialistic world?

A moral person is a person that understands that the universe does not revolve around their ego.

A civilized society is a society whose laws do not revolve around any one person or group of people.
The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.


Why BELIEVE that it will rain today when you can KNOW that it might rain today. Belief is unnecessary and illogical.

A moral person is a person that understands that the universe does not revolve around their ego.

A civilized society is a society whose laws do not revolve around any one person or group of people.
The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by GDR, posted 10-10-2017 8:39 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29787
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 263 of 1283 (821697)
10-11-2017 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by GDR
10-10-2017 8:39 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
GDR writes:

Sure, but then where does the sense of morality come from in a materialistic world?

But the world is not materialistic.

It really is that simple.

Some people may be materialistic, but even there it is seldom that simple. People experience. People are complex. Experiences are varied and those varied experiences cause complex reactions in people. Morality comes from experiences and teachings.

No God needs to apply.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by GDR, posted 10-10-2017 8:39 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16328
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 264 of 1283 (821699)
10-11-2017 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by GDR
10-10-2017 8:39 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
GDR writes:

I agree that in many issues there is considerable subjectivity involved. I see it this way. Evil is when we do things that motivated completely out of self image at the expense of others. Good is when do exercise self sacrifice for the good of someone else.

That wasn't the way you were originally talking about good and evil. What you've provided now are definitions that help people answer the question, "Am I doing good or evil."

You were originally talking about good and evil as if they were actual things (e.g., "good fully triumphs"), and I thought my important point was that good and evil are not things. Neither good nor evil is a force or an entity or an army or a nation that will one day reign victorious over the other. That's just Biblical imagery. And you know this because you go on to say:

I have no doubt that much of what I believe is probably wrong but I'm sure that's true of everyone.

Then why, since much of it is probably wrong, are you or anyone telling us what you believe? An even more important question is why anyone is trying to convert us to these beliefs that are probably wrong?

These questions are rhetorical, merely leading to the key issue, which you raise next:

I have read a lot of theology and as a result I now believe a number of things that I would have disagreed on in the past.

Many religious people believe they are on a path to improved belief. You think what you believe now an improvement over what you believed before. But to any non-religious person or person of another religion or even a person of your religion who looks at things differently from you, you've only exchanged one set of false beliefs for another. The more recent beliefs might be more detailed and complex and nuanced, but they're false nonetheless.

This is in reference to philosophy and theology. We can look at the basic question. Why do I exist? I know that I have conscious thoughts, others have studied evolutionary processes and have learned a certain amount about how we got here and so on, but the philosophical/theological question of why we exist does not have empirical evidence. We pretty much all come to some conclusion. Either we are the result of intelligence, completely mindless processes or we can even conclude that as there is no empirical evidence just come to the conclusion that we just can't know. It is however something that can be studied and discussed.

You can throw out all the theology and replace it with a little simple psychology. People believe things, some true, some false, some unknowable.

Sure, but then where does the sense of morality come from in a materialistic world?

Morality is subjective, and its origin is buried in our evolutionary history. If morality came from religion then wouldn't our jails be filled with atheists instead of Christians?

I'm not saying the issues and questions you raised aren't important ones, they are, but that is independent of the truth of the narratives of any particular religion.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by GDR, posted 10-10-2017 8:39 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by GDR, posted 10-12-2017 9:48 PM Percy has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10239
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 265 of 1283 (821700)
10-11-2017 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
10-10-2017 4:10 PM


Re: Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
Oh C,mon. You know exactly what I'm talking about!
Remember your exchange with Joe Wood? The Nehi Soda?
He had a bucket with cokes and Nehi orange and grape soda and we'd sit side by side at a table and just talk. I remember telling him that "Jesus died for my sins and so if I believed in Him I was saved." and his laugh before he said, "Well, then I guess all this is a waste of time isn't it?"
....The messenger is Jesus. The message is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. Of course, you disagree. Christianity is about what YOU do. That's your basic argument. While the other view is that Christianity is about what He did.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 4:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 10-11-2017 9:51 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29787
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 266 of 1283 (821703)
10-11-2017 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
10-11-2017 8:33 AM


Re: Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
Phat writes:

Oh C,mon. You know exactly what I'm talking about!

Actually no, I don't know exactly what you are talking about.

Phat writes:

Remember your exchange with Joe Wood? The Nehi Soda?

He had a bucket with cokes and Nehi orange and grape soda and we'd sit side by side at a table and just talk. I remember telling him that "Jesus died for my sins and so if I believed in Him I was saved." and his laugh before he said, "Well, then I guess all this is a waste of time isn't it?"
....The messenger is Jesus. The message is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. Of course, you disagree. Christianity is about what YOU do. That's your basic argument. While the other view is that Christianity is about what He did.

Of course I remember that but I also understand that Joe Wood did NOT provide an answer or say Jesus was the message.

And look at your response.

You say "The message is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection." and I ask, "Is that all you get from Jesus's message?"

Look at your response Phat. You go on to say "Christianity is about what YOU do. That's your basic argument. While the other view is that Christianity is about what He did."

I agree with what you posted but also find your conclusion worthy of pity. Yes, many many Christian Marketers, lots of pastors and ministers and brothers and apologists do sell that the message is Jesus' Death, Burial, and Resurrection; which makes all of Jesus' life, all of Jesus' teachings, all of Jesus parables, all of Jesus actions pretty much worthless and irrelevant.

It seems that for you, Jesus life was pretty much just a waste of time.

You claim "While the other view is that Christianity is about what He did." but then deny it is about what Jesus did but only about what was done to Jesus. You simply ignore almost all of what Jesus did and throw away the message.

Would it be better if Christians threw away the messenger and instead actually paid attention to the message; to do what Jesus said to do? Not what John said or Paul said or Peter said or Matthew said or Luke said but rather listen to the message Jesus presented?

Throw Jesus away Phat but heed the message!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 10-11-2017 8:33 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 10-11-2017 10:06 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10239
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 267 of 1283 (821704)
10-11-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by jar
10-11-2017 9:51 AM


Re: Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
You might wonder why i go off on these rabbit trails every few years or so. The truth is that my brain is locked into a pattern that always repeats itself and that in this pattern I prefer fantasy over reality. I think you have taught the message well over the years and that if I yearn for easy answers and get out of hell free cards its basically my own fault. I think it all started when i was young. The rescue always came sooner or later. I expect Jesus to provide the same thing.

Hou taught me well enough to make the choice between relief and responsibility. The brain pattern is real, however. Biblical Christianity can be an addiction.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 10-11-2017 9:51 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 10-11-2017 10:28 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29787
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 268 of 1283 (821705)
10-11-2017 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
10-11-2017 10:06 AM


The first step is to understand Biblical Christianity ignores what the Bible says:
Phat writes:

Biblical Christianity can be an addiction.

Just remember that "Biblical Christianity™" very seldom has any relationship to the Bible.

Yes, it can be addicting but addictions can be overcome. It ain't always easy or fun or even rewarding but it can be done.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 10-11-2017 10:06 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 269 of 1283 (821707)
10-11-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
10-06-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:

Once you know the Bible is God's word and MUST be God's word because otherwise we really are at the mercy of our fallen minds and the "helpfulness" of demons who love to trip us up, once you know that how can you question it? All you can do is rely on it, take it as your authority and teacher. That's what it's for. Without it all kinds of religions are invented that have some partial truths but a lot of demonic "help" as well. The Bible is God's gift to us to teach us the truth about Himself and the Moral Law and the nature of sin and God's Judgments and Christ and salvation, and to keep us from the errors of our fallen minds. You DO mislead new believers by questioning it. There is no other source of reliable information about God.

Do you think there's a difference between the following:

1. Questioning the Bible - The Bible says something, and you don't like it, so you ask questions in order to see if there are any loopholes you might be able to jump through.
(I agree with you that such an idea would be misleading to new believers)

2. Questioning the Bible - The Bible says something, but you don't know what it is, so you ask questions in order to seek clarification on what, specifically, the Bible is actually saying.
(I do not agree with you that such an idea is misleading to new believers, I think this sort of questioning shows an honesty and dedication to the purity of the Bible that should be respected and encouraged)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 11:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 10-11-2017 11:31 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 270 of 1283 (821709)
10-11-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
10-10-2017 11:15 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:

I'm starting to agree with the idea that there is no black and white dichotomy in human morality. I used to firmly believe in the all or nothing pronouncement of saved or lost but am now more comfortable with the honest realization that I could be both!

Perhaps. Or maybe not

Now, *IF* there is a final judgment and God (or someone) is deciding whether or not each individual is Saved or Lost... then, well, you will definitely be Saved or Lost... just like everyone else. Unless God has an "undecided" pile?

Of course, this is besides the point.
The point is that such a judgment (even if an "all powerful, all knowing God" decides to attempt such a thing) is entirely laughable.
It says nothing about the character of any individual person. It really only speaks of the character of the one making the judgment.

Each individual person will have a history of situations and experiences.
Some of those scenarios will be closer to a Lost judgment while others will be closer to a Saved judgment.
Many will not give an indication either way.

Now, even if there is some final judgment about whether you end up on the Lost or Saved side... it won't erase those situations and experiences that make you "you" from the opposite side of things. They will still exist. "You" will still exist. And with this new information, "you" can still decide to do whatever you can to go in whatever direction you'd like.

Therefore... any "final judgment" (even from an all-powerful, all-knowing God) is entirely useless for judging someone's character (if that is supposed to be the point.)

All it ends up doing is show us what the Judge's character was in trying to divide people at the time of their judging.

Phat writes:

I used to defend this accusation by stating that one has to either stand for something or they will fall for anything! but I am now realizing that I actually stand for many things and fall for many things every day and that it is overall a learning process.

Not only that, but sometimes we stand for things we fell for before... or fall for things we stood for before.
We're all human... with varying degrees of memory, motivation, stead-fastness, resolve and ideas about what's actually "moral" and when.

If you want to help - try to be better.
Honestly. And you're the only one who will ever know if you're really being honest about your abilities or not.

If you don't want to help - then screw you too

I simply could never even imagine being an atheist! The implications are chilling to me personally.

We just try "to be better" in ways that are different from your personal situations and experiences.
That's basically all it really is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 11:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2017 11:29 AM Stile has responded

    
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