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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 376 of 1540 (822120)
10-19-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by GDR
10-19-2017 2:16 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
That's nonsense. What you are saying is that you accept the parts of the Nicene Creed which you accept.
And that is simply an incorrect statement. I have told you clearly what I believe and it is time you stopped misrepresenting what I have said.
GDR writes:
I have never claimed, just the opposite in fact, that that is the whole point of Jesus' life. However, without the resurrection Jesus is simply a failed messiah, and there is no more reason to give Him credibility as part of the godhead than Gandhi.
And your posit5ion is still totally irrelevant and has absolutely nothing to do with my beliefs.
You really need to try to actually address what it written to you by me and by others and stop just making stuff up.
Even if Jesus was just another failed Messiah that has nothing to do with what Jesus taught or whether or not I am a Christian.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 2:16 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 377 of 1540 (822121)
10-19-2017 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by GDR
10-19-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
Would you say that Lazarus was resurrected?
Absolutely. and there are at least nine examples of people being resurrected in the Bible.
GDR writes:
Would you say that someone who dies on the operating table and is brought back to life is resurrected.
Nope, I certainly would not. Resurrection has a quality of miracle and an unexplained nature. Medical and even strange such events with rational explanations do not fall into the category of theology where resurrection lies.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 2:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 8:53 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 378 of 1540 (822135)
10-19-2017 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by jar
10-19-2017 3:31 PM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
bsolutely. and there are at least nine examples of people being resurrected in the Bible.
The references to resurrection the Bible are either about Jesus or the resurrection of all things at the end of time. The accounts of the resurrected Jesus are unlike any other accounts in the Bible. They just aren't the same thing.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 3:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 9:33 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 379 of 1540 (822138)
10-19-2017 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by GDR
10-19-2017 8:53 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
The references to resurrection the Bible are either about Jesus or the resurrection of all things at the end of time. The accounts of the resurrected Jesus are unlike any other accounts in the Bible. They just aren't the same thing.
Nonsense. Even Paul was resurrected. Sorry but there simply is nothing different about Jesus resurrection from all the other resurrections in the Bible stories. Even Jesus ascension is not unique in the Bible.
But the point remains, even if Jesus never lived, even if Jesus was not resurrected, the teaching contained in the Bible stories can still provide a valid path to guide someones life.
Also the fact of Jesus living, Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension are irrelevant to the foundational beliefs of Christianity. Even if none of it ever really happened people believed that Jesus did live, did teach, did die, did arise from the dead and did ascend to heaven and that at some future date will judge all.
It is the belief not any reality that is relevant.
In addition, none of that matters in anyway on whether or not I am a Christian.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 8:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 9:48 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 380 of 1540 (822139)
10-19-2017 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by jar
10-19-2017 9:33 PM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
But the point remains, even if Jesus never lived, even if Jesus was not resurrected, the teaching contained in the Bible stories can still provide a valid path to guide someones life.
Also the fact of Jesus living, Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension are irrelevant to the foundational beliefs of Christianity. Even if none of it ever really happened people believed that Jesus did live, did teach, did die, did arise from the dead and did ascend to heaven and that at some future date will judge all.
It is the belief not any reality that is relevant.
Sure, but that is something that anyone of any faith or even atheism could agree to. It isn't in any way specific to Christianity. It is simply a good way to live life even if it does leave Jesus being delusional.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 9:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 10-20-2017 7:38 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 381 of 1540 (822149)
10-20-2017 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by GDR
10-19-2017 9:48 PM


Re: Evolving theology
LOL
GDR writes:
Sure, but that is something that anyone of any faith or even atheism could agree to. It isn't in any way specific to Christianity. It is simply a good way to live life even if it does leave Jesus being delusional.
Exactly. Doing what Jesus taught, what the Buddha taught before him, what Judaism teaches, what Islam teaches, what most atheist practice, is a good way to live one's life.
That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I am a Christian.
Christianity is but one possible path, not "THE Path". It is the path I happened to take. But just as Jesus points out in Luke, just as with the Jews, we are NOT the Chosen People.
Luke 4 writes:
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
All people are God's creation and God's people and that includes those that follow Gandhi and atheists and any faith or no faith.
Christianity is only a collection of paths, not "The Path" and sometimes maybe the right path but too often it seems Christianity is a path that leads nowhere.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 9:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by GDR, posted 10-20-2017 10:31 AM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 382 of 1540 (822161)
10-20-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by jar
10-20-2017 7:38 AM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
Exactly. Doing what Jesus taught, what the Buddha taught before him, what Judaism teaches, what Islam teaches, what most atheist practice, is a good way to live one's life.
That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I am a Christian.
Christianity is but one possible path, not "THE Path". It is the path I happened to take. But just as Jesus points out in Luke, just as with the Jews, we are NOT the Chosen People.
That's all great. It sounds like the Rotary Club. AS I said, you're a cultural Christian. Why on earth do you object to that?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 10-20-2017 7:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by jar, posted 10-20-2017 11:12 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 383 of 1540 (822163)
10-20-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by GDR
10-20-2017 10:31 AM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
AS I said, you're a cultural Christian. Why on earth do you object to that?
I object because that is simply wrong.
I am NOT a cultural Christian but just a Christian.
It really is that simple.
Maybe it would help if I explained that I am a Christian who no longer thinks as a child.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by GDR, posted 10-20-2017 10:31 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 12:49 PM jar has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 384 of 1540 (822165)
10-20-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by GDR
10-19-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Evolving theology
Do you see any differences in the Biblical account of the resurrection of Jesus and Lazarus being brought back to life?
One noticeable difference between Jesus' resurrection vs. Lazarus' is that Lazarus was dead even longer than Jesus...to the point they were concerned about the smell of decomposition. He was dead four days as opposed to Jesus' two and a half days.
So purely in terms of story telling, Lazarus seems like an even more dramatic resurrection.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 2:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 1:10 PM Aussie has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 385 of 1540 (822167)
10-20-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by GDR
10-19-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
Would you say that Lazarus was resurrected?
Yes. He rose from the dead. That's what the word means. Just Google "Resurrection of Lazarus".
GDR writes:
Would you say that someone who dies on the operating table and is brought back to life is resurrected.
Yes. That's what the word means. We don't usually use it in that context; we usually use it for a miraculous event - but the resurrection of Lazarus was no more or less miraculous than the resurrection of Jesus.
GDR writes:
Do you see any differences in the Biblical account of the resurrection of Jesus and Lazarus being brought back to life?
Resurrection is resurrection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 2:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by GDR, posted 10-30-2017 2:08 PM ringo has replied
 Message 408 by GDR, posted 10-30-2017 6:29 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 386 of 1540 (822232)
10-21-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by jar
10-20-2017 11:12 AM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
I object because that is simply wrong.
I am NOT a cultural Christian but just a Christian.
It really is that simple.
You can call yourself whatever you like. Your statements speak for yourself. You agree that your beliefs are compatible with the majority of religions and even secular humanism.
jar writes:
Maybe it would help if I explained that I am a Christian who no longer thinks as a child.
That is typical of the amount of hubris that very often is typical of your posts. Hardly Christian don't you think? Read my signature.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by jar, posted 10-20-2017 11:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 2:07 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 387 of 1540 (822233)
10-21-2017 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Aussie
10-20-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Evolving theology
Aussie writes:
So purely in terms of story telling, Lazarus seems like an even more dramatic resurrection.
Lazarus experienced a resuscitation. He later died the same death that all of us experience. There is no account of Lazarus' revival being called a resurrection.
Many Jews at the time believed in a resurrection at some point in the future when Yahweh would raise up the faithful to be with Him. Thus the metaphorical, (at least I believe it was metaphorical), telling of the the bodies of the saints rising from the dead and leaving their tombs. Matthew understood that this was not a simple case of bringing someone back to life, but a case of bringing someone back to a new form of life, or the new Adam of a renewed world. This is also consistent with the entire NT.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Aussie, posted 10-20-2017 11:43 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by Aussie, posted 10-23-2017 10:01 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 388 of 1540 (822235)
10-21-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by GDR
10-21-2017 12:49 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
You can call yourself whatever you like. Your statements speak for yourself. You agree that your beliefs are compatible with the majority of religions and even secular humanism.
Too funny and typical of your thought pattern.
Some of my beliefs are compatible with the majority of religions and even secular humanism.
That of course has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I am a Christian. I am a Christian who no longer thinks as a child and one that actually can read with comprehension. It's not hubris but an attempt at education.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 12:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 7:16 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 389 of 1540 (822240)
10-21-2017 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by jar
10-21-2017 2:07 PM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
Some of my beliefs are compatible with the majority of religions and even secular humanism.
You say that some are. That's true for me too. Which of your beliefs as a Christian don't fall into that category?
jar writes:
I am a Christian who no longer thinks as a child and one that actually can read with comprehension. It's not hubris but an attempt at education.
Thanks heavens we have you adults around to keep us children on the true path. Nope, no hubris there.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 2:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 7:47 PM GDR has replied
 Message 391 by Phat, posted 10-21-2017 9:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 390 of 1540 (822244)
10-21-2017 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by GDR
10-21-2017 7:16 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
You say that some are. That's true for me too. Which of your beliefs as a Christian don't fall into that category?
See, that is a perfect example of either not being able to read or not being able to comprehend.
Go back and read Message 111 and Message 155 and Message 266 and Message 349 and Message 358 and Message 369 and if you want I can likely point you to other posts.
The fact is as I have explained to you I am and have been for almost three quarters of a century a Cradle Creedal Christian raised in a Christian family, educated in a Christian school and most importantly, a Confirmed member of an acknowledge Christian faith.
Are you aware of the Nicene Creed (in at least one of the various versions)?
Are you aware of Baptism and Confirmation?
I believe what is stated in the creeds but I am also honest enough that I do not take pieces parts of the creeds or the Bible out of context.
I am also honest enough to acknowledge that what I believe is almost certainly wrong.
TTBOMK the Nicene Creed is peculiar to and particular to Club Christian.
I am not a "cultural Christian" what ever that is but simply a member of the Episcopal Church.
They are called beliefs for a reason instead of being called knowledge or fact.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 7:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by GDR, posted 10-22-2017 2:32 AM jar has replied

  
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