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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1081 of 1254 (824883)
12-04-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1080 by PaulK
12-04-2017 4:12 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
PaulK writes:

Percy writes:


The second opinion, the one advanced by David Hume, seems closer to Modulous's opinion

It’s the view that jar has been putting forward. The one that Faith can’t understand.

Almost. I use the same basic arguments as Hume relating to whether or not there can be evidence of miracles but Hume goes further and concludes that since evidence of divine intervention or miracles is impossible, one should dismiss and not believe in miracles.

My position is that we must follow Hume's reasoning related to the evidence for miracles but if we do believe in miracles (and I do believe in miracles) should admit that it is simply our personal belief and desire that miracles exist not not based on reason, logic, reality or evidence.

Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 1092 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 2:48 PM jar has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2731
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 1082 of 1254 (824887)
12-04-2017 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Phat
12-03-2017 3:48 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
quote:
So in your mind, the only thing that is really possible is something that has a natural explanation.

Hi Phat,
I thought I'd chime in. I see it this way, anything that occurs in the universe is natural imo.

It was once thought that things that defied explanation were magic. We now have explanations for the most improbable of phenomenon. Electricity for one is amazing but a natural occurrence.

If something exist that is supernatural then it must somehow be outside the bounds of our physical universe. If it is then how can it interact with things? I dont think God, (if God exist) cares about all that though.
Neither does the bumble bee.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Phat, posted 12-03-2017 3:48 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1083 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 1:50 AM 1.61803 has responded
 Message 1094 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 3:26 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1083 of 1254 (824909)
12-05-2017 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1082 by 1.61803
12-04-2017 5:48 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
1.61803 writes:

If something exist that is supernatural then it must somehow be outside the bounds of our physical universe. If it is then how can it interact with things?

You mean like dark energy or dark matter?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1082 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2017 5:48 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1084 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 7:29 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 1085 by 1.61803, posted 12-05-2017 11:02 AM GDR has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1084 of 1254 (824912)
12-05-2017 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1083 by GDR
12-05-2017 1:50 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:

You mean like dark energy or dark matter?

Are you suggesting that Dark Energy and Dark Matter are supernatural?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1083 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 1:50 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1087 by Phat, posted 12-05-2017 11:14 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2731
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 1085 of 1254 (824923)
12-05-2017 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1083 by GDR
12-05-2017 1:50 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:

You mean like dark energy or dark matter?

Hi GDR,

It is theorized that dark energy can hypothetically interact with itself.

I have read according to NASA. that dark energy makes up 68 % of the universe and dark matter 27% . Every force, atom, element, molecule, that exist in this universe accounts for only 5 percent.

It may turn out that the things we are calling dark energy and dark matter are place holder terms for something science has yet to fully understand or explain.

I believe that the word "supernatural" are what we call things that seem to defy explanation or adhere to the known laws of physics.

Just because we do not know what it is yet does not mean it does not exist. That includes God as well as far as I am concerned.
I do not know but do not rule it out.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1083 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 1:50 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1086 of 1254 (824926)
12-05-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1085 by 1.61803
12-05-2017 11:02 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
..and in answer to jar, I'm not saying that it is supernatural but it is outside the bounds of our physical universe.

There was an interesting headline on the cover of my copy of Scientific American a few years ago.

It was " Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter- An entire universe may be interwoven silently with our own". You tell me - would that be supernatural?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1085 by 1.61803, posted 12-05-2017 11:02 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1088 by 1.61803, posted 12-05-2017 11:25 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 1090 by Percy, posted 12-05-2017 11:46 AM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1087 of 1254 (824928)
12-05-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1084 by jar
12-05-2017 7:29 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
Of course one could argue that since they were able to detect dark energy and dark matter that disqualified them from being supernatural...

Some Christians exchange the word supernatural for magic...and everyone knows a good magician never reveals their secrets...but here is a question:
Apart from John, how much of what Jesus did in the other three Gospels qualifies as supernatural?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1084 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 7:29 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2731
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1088 of 1254 (824929)
12-05-2017 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1086 by GDR
12-05-2017 11:08 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:

You tell me - would that be supernatural?

Supernatural is a word and it means different things to different people.

Many worlds theory or Multiverse theories that postulates infinite numbers of universes can give rise to just as many infinite numbers of possibilities. Supernatural in that sense loses its meaning as far as I am concerned.

On some other planet in some other universe Elvis is typing this.

So if other universes exist with completely different timelines and they begin to interact with our universe then yes I would call those things supernatural insomuch that I could very hardly call those things natural occurrences. Check out the series Stranger Things or Fringe.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1086 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 11:08 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1089 by Stile, posted 12-05-2017 11:44 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1089 of 1254 (824932)
12-05-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1088 by 1.61803
12-05-2017 11:25 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
1.61803 writes:

So if other universes exist with completely different timelines and they begin to interact with our universe then yes I would call those things supernatural insomuch that I could very hardly call those things natural occurrences.

I agree with your phrasing here.

But what about permanency?
Wouldn't something that's really "supernatural" be supernatural all the time?

With your above provided example... let's say such a thing is identified today.
I agree that calling it "supernatural" seems... rather normal.

But what if our knowledge of it grows and familiarity grows over the next 1000 years?
What if kids are brought up simply understanding that "yeah, those gates over there take you to the other-world."
And it becomes an ingrained part of normal society that things happen-like-this here, but happen-like-that over there?

Would it then become natural? Just a different kind of natural we didn't know about before?

Are all things supernatural doomed to become "natural occurrences" as familiarity grows?
Is anything actually supernatural in the sense that it will (and should) always be referred to as supernatural?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1088 by 1.61803, posted 12-05-2017 11:25 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1250 by 1.61803, posted 12-12-2017 5:53 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16306
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1090 of 1254 (824933)
12-05-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1086 by GDR
12-05-2017 11:08 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:

..and in answer to jar, I'm not saying that it is supernatural but it is outside the bounds of our physical universe.

Dark matter and dark energy are very much inside "the bounds of our physical universe," or to put in terms of a song from a 1939 film, they are "morally, ethically, spiritually, physically, positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably" a genuine part of our universe.

Dark matter interacts with other matter through gravity. Theoretical indications are that dark matter should occasionally interact with normal matter, but this has not yet been experimentally verified (see, for example, The World's Most Sensitive Dark Matter Detector Is Now Up and Running).

Dark energy is just a name for the effect causing our universe to expand, but we don't know what it actually is yet. However, since it is having so dramatic an effect on our universe, it is definitely a part of it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1086 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 11:08 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1099 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 3:56 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26711
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1091 of 1254 (824945)
12-05-2017 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1079 by Percy
12-04-2017 3:45 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
I don't do ploys as you imagine I do, Percy. What unfortunately happens is that I have a strong impression that then changes as I get new responses. For whatever reason I'm always completely convinced something is at an end, and then find myself having to respond further. Maybe I'm "bipolar" or something but I haven't been able to change this pattern though I've tried. I succeed once in a while in anticipating such an eventuality, but not often enough.

Aa for the content, it actually still holds that there is nothing more to say. Once you've decided I'm misjudging the evidence there's nothing more to say.

I know Christianity is the only true religion and it's probably the main reason I'm a Chrsitian. Some religions hold people because they were born into it, that's a very shaky basis even for Chrsitians, but other religions don't have the objective value Chrsitianity has. I don't defend it because I'm a Christian, I'm a Chrixtian because it's true.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1079 by Percy, posted 12-04-2017 3:45 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1093 by PaulK, posted 12-05-2017 3:15 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1104 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 10:55 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26711
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1092 of 1254 (824947)
12-05-2017 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1081 by jar
12-04-2017 4:39 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
To deny the clear facts that distinguish a miracle from a normal event makes Hume's judgments nonsensical. Water does not normally turn to wine, great seas do not part and expose the dry ground beneath, corpses do not come back to life, lame people don't just up and walk and so on on and so forth. To ask for more evidence than the witnessing of such events by some number of people is ridiculous.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1081 by jar, posted 12-04-2017 4:39 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1097 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 3:45 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1093 of 1254 (824948)
12-05-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1091 by Faith
12-05-2017 2:40 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
quote:

Aa for the content, it actually still holds that there is nothing more to say. Once you've decided I'm misjudging the evidence there's nothing more to say.

Given that your case relies on assuming that the Gospel writers were not subject to ordinary human weaknesses - and you won’t even consider the possibility that they weren’t witnesses, were credulous, were strongly biased and that their sources were also credulous and biased it seems rather obvious that you are misjudging the evidence.

Of course, if you were not simply assuming those things you could make a case for them - which would be “more to say”. Obviously you have none which means that you are certainly misjudging the evidence.

quote:

I'm a Chrixtian because it's true.

But you do have a strong tendency to believe quite ridiculous falsehoods just because you like them. So your belief in something is hardly proof it’s true. (I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out to be evidence of falsehood).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1091 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 2:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1095 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 3:29 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26711
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1094 of 1254 (824949)
12-05-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1082 by 1.61803
12-04-2017 5:48 PM


Nature of the supernatural
1.61803 writes:

Hi Phat,
I thought I'd chime in. I see it this way, anything that occurs in the universe is natural imo.

It was once thought that things that defied explanation were magic. We now have explanations for the most improbable of phenomenon. Electricity for one is amazing but a natural occurrence.

I agree that if it can be detected and measured it's a natural phenomenon but I'm not sure that's the end of the category.

If something exist that is supernatural then it must somehow be outside the bounds of our physical universe.

"Outside the bounds" is a risky formulation because all the phenomena being called supernatural are certainly within the bounds of the universe, just not of the same stuff. But we are misusing the concept of "supernatural" if we simply confine it to the unmeasurable untestable nonphysical realities we're talking about here, though it is a handy shorthand I fall into too. They are no less natural for being unmeasurable. I don't know the best way to conceptualize these things but if they exist they are real the same way the physical material things are real, and I don't see any reason to think of them as a separate universe since they interpenetrate the physical universe we live in.

I suppose the best analogy is the mind or the soul. Extreme materialists may claim these don't have reality but they must have the same kind of reality as demons and angels so they serve as a model for this nonphysical universe that is wrongly called supernatural.

The only TRUE supernatural entity is God Himself, everything else was created by Him, including the spiritual nonphysical entities such as angels and fallen angels and whatever other beings may be part of that realm of being. Such creatures are sentient, they can't be made to conform to scientific tests. They are normally invisible to us but some ascribe a "degree" of physicality to them, whatever that means, something to do with their ability to "manifest" in the physical world.

True miracles on the order reported in the Bible are suspensions of the laws of the physical universe that only God can do, since He created it and runs it. (There is an order of "manifestations" that demons are able to do but they are trivial little tricks, that for instance some Hindu gurus may invoke, and they are often faked too. The guru Sai Baba was known for these things. {See "Avatar of Night" by Tal Brooke.})

If it is then how can it interact with things? I dont think God, (if God exist) cares about all that though.

Well, the Bible disagrees with you since miracles are definitely put forward as evidence for the deity of Christ in the NT as well as the reality and nature of God in the OT. The appearances of angels and demons help to define the greater reality we all live in, which makes heaven and hell real places and the promises of eternity after death a reality.

Neither does the bumble bee.

Probably true though not relevant.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1082 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2017 5:48 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26711
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1095 of 1254 (824950)
12-05-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1093 by PaulK
12-05-2017 3:15 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
I'm in tune with the entire history of orthodox Christianity so when you insult me you are insulting all of that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1093 by PaulK, posted 12-05-2017 3:15 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1096 by PaulK, posted 12-05-2017 3:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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