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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1096 of 1254 (824953)
12-05-2017 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1095 by Faith
12-05-2017 3:29 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
quote:

I'm in tune with the entire history of orthodox Christianity so when you insult me you are insulting all of that.

But I didnít insult you.

Pointing out the fact that you are not evaluating the evidence properly - and implicitly admit that you canít defend the underlying assumptions - is not an insult. Itís just fact.

Pointing out that you do believe ridiculous falsehoods isnít an insult either - itís another fact.

If you donít like either of those facts itís up to you to change.

And I donít see how orthodox Christianity has any objection to that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1095 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 3:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1097 of 1254 (824954)
12-05-2017 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1092 by Faith
12-05-2017 2:48 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Faith writes:

To deny the clear facts that distinguish a miracle from a normal event makes Hume's judgments nonsensical. Water does not normally turn to wine, great seas do not part and expose the dry ground beneath, corpses do not come back to life, lame people don't just up and walk and so on on and so forth. To ask for more evidence than the witnessing of such events by some number of people is ridiculous.

Yet you still have not provided any evidence of the supernatural and of course, every religion has their very own gen-u-wine miracles. Frankly, the so called miracles of the Bible don't even hold a candle to the miracles found in other true religions.

The claims of miracles found in the Bible stories are pretty much run of the mill rehashed tales found in other religions.

What makes them different than the miracle of a cobra spreading its hood to shade the Buddha?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1092 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 2:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1098 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 3:51 PM jar has responded
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 4:53 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26711
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1098 of 1254 (824956)
12-05-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1097 by jar
12-05-2017 3:45 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
There really aren't any true miracles in other religions. I haven't seen a believable account of a miracle in any other religion. Just saying such and such happened is not very convincing. The way the miracles are reported in the Bible has depth and reality and human context in a way that makes them believable, and they are important events that violate physical laws, not something a fallen angel could make a cobra do..

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1097 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 3:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1102 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 4:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1099 of 1254 (824957)
12-05-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1090 by Percy
12-05-2017 11:46 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
Percy writes:

Dark energy is just a name for the effect causing our universe to expand, but we don't know what it actually is yet. However, since it is having so dramatic an effect on our universe, it is definitely a part of it.

In that case then so are miracles, (on the assumption that they really happened), are a part of our physical universe because they effect it as well.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1090 by Percy, posted 12-05-2017 11:46 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1100 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2017 4:07 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 1106 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 3:27 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1100 of 1254 (824959)
12-05-2017 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1099 by GDR
12-05-2017 3:56 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:

In that case then so are miracles, (on the assumption that they really happened), are a part of our physical universe because they effect it as well.

This continues to be a weird argument.

If miracles existed, of course they'd be part of our physical universe; if they existed outside our physical universe we could never know anything about them. How could we? And anything that exists in our physical universe can be detected, as can dark stuff.

Of course the position is moot until you present us with a miracle to have a look at.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1099 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 3:56 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1101 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 4:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1101 of 1254 (824960)
12-05-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1100 by Tangle
12-05-2017 4:07 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
And anything that exists in our physical universe can be detected...

How do you know there aren't undetectable things in our physical universe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1100 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2017 4:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1103 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2017 5:23 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1102 of 1254 (824962)
12-05-2017 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1098 by Faith
12-05-2017 3:51 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Faith writes:

There really aren't any true miracles in other religions. I haven't seen a believable account of a miracle in any other religion. Just saying such and such happened is not very convincing. The way the miracles are reported in the Bible has depth and reality and human context in a way that makes them believable, and they are important events that violate physical laws, not something a fallen angel could make a cobra do..

Too funny.

You understand that is hardly evidence Faith, just more unsupported assertions.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1098 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 3:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 1103 of 1254 (824965)
12-05-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1101 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2017 4:19 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
NCE writes:

How do you know there aren't undetectable things in our physical universe?

If we couldn't detect them they wouldn't look like a miracle now would they.....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1101 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 4:19 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16306
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1104 of 1254 (824994)
12-06-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1091 by Faith
12-05-2017 2:40 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Faith writes:

I don't do ploys as you imagine I do, Percy. What unfortunately happens is that I have a strong impression that then changes as I get new responses. For whatever reason I'm always completely convinced something is at an end, and then find myself having to respond further. Maybe I'm "bipolar" or something but I haven't been able to change this pattern though I've tried. I succeed once in a while in anticipating such an eventuality, but not often enough.

Whether you're doing it as a ploy or not, it is almost never true, and isn't fair to the people you're discussing with because it causes them to believe discussion is over and not reply, only later to see you raise the exact same arguments again, and in a way that pretends the previous objections had never been raised.

Hold up your right hand, put your left hand on the King James Bible, and repeat after me: "I <say your name> will no longer unilaterally declare an end to discussion, no matter what inner impulses I must battle."

As for the content, it actually still holds that there is nothing more to say. Once you've decided I'm misjudging the evidence there's nothing more to say.

And yet you find something more to say anyway.

By the way, in my last post I did not say you were "misjudging the evidence." I said that your faith in your ability to tell the supernatural from the natural or the real from the fictional is misplaced. You have no such superpower, plus the existence of the supernatural has not been established.

I know Christianity is the only true religion and it's probably the main reason I'm a Christian.

You know this in the same way that devout adherents of other religions know that their religion is the only true religion.

Some religions hold people because they were born into it, that's a very shaky basis even for Christians, but other religions don't have the objective value Christianity has.

Whatever this "objective value" is that you think Christianity possesses, Christianity is not the yardstick by which all other religions are judged.

I don't defend it because I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian because it's true.

Your belief in Christianity as the "one true religion" is something you accept on faith, though to be honest the way you express it it comes across more as a unfounded conceit.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1091 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 2:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1111 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:03 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16306
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1105 of 1254 (825024)
12-06-2017 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1094 by Faith
12-05-2017 3:26 PM


Re: Nature of the supernatural
Faith writes:

"Outside the bounds" is a risky formulation because all the phenomena being called supernatural are certainly within the bounds of the universe, just not of the same stuff. But we are misusing the concept of "supernatural" if we simply confine it to the unmeasurable untestable nonphysical realities we're talking about here, though it is a handy shorthand I fall into too. They are no less natural for being unmeasurable. I don't know the best way to conceptualize these things but if they exist they are real the same way the physical material things are real, and I don't see any reason to think of them as a separate universe since they interpenetrate the physical universe we live in.

You say a lot here, but the main point seems to be that the term "supernatural" is misleading because it implies that the supernatural is not of this universe, when the reality is that it is very much part of this universe, just unmeasurable.

But your paragraph appears to waffle a bit about whether the supernatural can be physical. Of course it can be physical. The miracles of the Bible usually result in exactly the "same stuff" as our natural universe. The Plagues of Egypt were just frogs and locust and hail and so forth, common stuff in our universe. Jesus turned water of our universe into wine of our universe which was drunk and digested and excreted by people of our universe. The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who gave birth to a male baby of our universe and who died just as any other crucified man of our universe would die. Quite obviously the supernatural can be of the exact "same stuff" as our natural universe and is not confined to the unphysical.

About this one portion:

They are no less natural for being unmeasurable.

All things that are unmeasurable (I assume you mean undetectable) are indistinguishable from the non-existent.

And about this other portion:

...I don't see any reason to think of them as a separate universe since they interpenetrate the physical universe we live in.

I understand this to be saying that the supernatural permeates our universe.

I suppose the best analogy is the mind or the soul. Extreme materialists may claim these don't have reality but they must have the same kind of reality as demons and angels so they serve as a model for this nonphysical universe that is wrongly called supernatural.

Boiling this down, you've just said that "the mind or the soul..." must be real so it can "...serve as a model for this nonphysical universe..." What are you trying to say here?

I do agree that the soul has "the same kind of reality as demons and angels."

True miracles on the order reported in the Bible are suspensions of the laws of the physical universe that only God can do, since He created it and runs it.

But a miracle could occur where it can be measured and analyzed. There is nothing in the Bible prohibiting God from performing a miracle in a laboratory. I understand we should not test the Lord our God, but he could do it if it chose, right? And isn't that proscription just a bit too convenient?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1094 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 3:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1114 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:18 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16306
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1106 of 1254 (825025)
12-06-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1099 by GDR
12-05-2017 3:56 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:

In that case then so are miracles, (on the assumption that they really happened), are a part of our physical universe because they affect it as well.

Anything detectable and therefore amenable to study is part of our physical universe. Got a miracle for us to study?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1099 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 3:56 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1107 by GDR, posted 12-06-2017 4:09 PM Percy has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1107 of 1254 (825033)
12-06-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1106 by Percy
12-06-2017 3:27 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Percy writes:

Anything detectable and therefore amenable to study is part of our physical universe. Got a miracle for us to study?


Creation

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1106 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 3:27 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1108 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 4:15 PM GDR has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16306
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1108 of 1254 (825035)
12-06-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1107 by GDR
12-06-2017 4:09 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:

Percy writes:

Anything detectable and therefore amenable to study is part of our physical universe. Got a miracle for us to study?


Creation

Which one? The one described in Genesis, or the one we're already studying concerning how the Big Bang came about? If the former, how do you propose we study this scientifically? If the latter, what makes it a miracle?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1107 by GDR, posted 12-06-2017 4:09 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1122 by GDR, posted 12-07-2017 1:48 AM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26711
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1109 of 1254 (825037)
12-06-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1097 by jar
12-05-2017 3:45 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
The evidence of the supernatural has in fact been given over and over here, it's the witness of the Bible. That's it and it's good evidence but you are free to pretend it isn't. Just stop saying no evidence has been given because that's false.

And no, the miracles in the Bible are not in any other religions, not even the shadow of a similarity so if you are going to claim they are you need to give the evidence that they are. Sorry, a flat out statement that the moon split is hardly credible and an expanding cobra isn't a miracle, and is probably also false.

The miracles in the bible are truly violations of the natural law that can only be done by God Himself. You won't find anything remotely comparable anywhere else.

If you insist on including the two examples above, which is ludicrous in the extreme, even then you have two very iffy candidates against dozens in the Bible which are obviously of much higher quality and credibility.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1097 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 3:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1110 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2017 5:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1112 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 5:03 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1118 by jar, posted 12-06-2017 7:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1110 of 1254 (825038)
12-06-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Faith
12-06-2017 4:53 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Faith writes:

That's it and it's good evidence but you are free to pretend it isn't.

It's 2,000 year old hearsay written by unidentified people at least 30 years after the supposed facts who were politically and religiously motivated.

It's hard to imagine worse 'evidence'; it doesn't even qualify.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 4:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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