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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14198
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1426 of 1540 (826142)
12-23-2017 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1424 by Faith
12-22-2017 9:39 PM


Re: Oh well
quote:

It doesn't change the fact that your religious beliefs are not facts,

Only to you, to me they are, and I don't think your opinion gets to trump mine in this situation.


Even without any further consideration it is clear that you cannot expect others to regard your religious views as facts - at least not unless you can actually support them with sound arguments. (And you have a record of calling arguments “good” even though they have been shown to be bad).

In context, it looks worse. Your religious beliefs include twisting scripture to fit doctrine - and suppressing knowledge of the Bible that contradicts your beliefs with invented accusations (want to explain why that ISN’T “bearing false witness”?).
It seems a bit much then for you to accuse others of mistreating scripture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1424 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 9:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1427 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 6:40 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28932
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1427 of 1540 (826144)
12-23-2017 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1426 by PaulK
12-23-2017 2:31 AM


Re: Oh well
My beliefs are completely standard and typical and your accusations are off the wall. And my point was that you don't get just to announce YOUR view against mine as if yours is the truth if this is really a debate or a discussion.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1426 by PaulK, posted 12-23-2017 2:31 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1428 by PaulK, posted 12-23-2017 6:59 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14198
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1428 of 1540 (826145)
12-23-2017 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1427 by Faith
12-23-2017 6:40 AM


Re: Oh well
quote:

My beliefs are completely standard and typical and your accusations are off the wall.

It doesn’t matter whether it is “standard” to believe in twisting and misrepresenting the Bible to fit your dogma or in making false accusations against any who find out that the Bible isn’t what you want it to be. It’s still hardly what we’d expect from a Christian or anyone who can honestly claim to believe the Bible.

quote:

And my point was that you don't get just to announce YOUR view against mine as if yours is the truth if this is really a debate or a discussion.

But it isn’t just duelling opinions. In real, honest, debate it comes down to who can support their opinions with evidence and reason. And if you lose there, and you do, then getting angry about it and attacking people who dare to disagree with you is hardly a good thing to do in any sense. But you still do it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1427 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 6:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1429 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 7:00 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28932
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1429 of 1540 (826146)
12-23-2017 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1428 by PaulK
12-23-2017 6:59 AM


Re: Oh well
I don't twist anything.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1428 by PaulK, posted 12-23-2017 6:59 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1430 by PaulK, posted 12-23-2017 7:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14198
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1430 of 1540 (826147)
12-23-2017 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1429 by Faith
12-23-2017 7:00 AM


Re: Oh well
quote:

I don't twist anything.

Odd coming from someone with a history of misrepresenting their sources. And it’s really hard to endorse Biblical inerrancy (let alone with Calvinism as well) without twisting or misrepresenting the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1429 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 7:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17432
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1431 of 1540 (826168)
12-23-2017 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1424 by Faith
12-22-2017 9:39 PM


Re: Oh well
Faith writes:

I meant temporarily, "for now," sorry I wasn't clear, but as usual it's hard to have such a frustrating conversation when nothing I say is acceptable and your views are from some other planet from my point of view.

My views should not seem like they're from some other planet to you since you yourself held different views in the past. You need only look to your past self to find different views, not some other planet. And you're ignoring the reality that the world is full of different religions with different beliefs and always has been. Describing views different from your own as if from some other planet merely highlights how deeply you've fallen into conservative Christianity like a cult, where outsiders aren't trusted and in your case are always denigrated and even considered dangerous.

But nevertheless I DID mean only "for now."

And yet you're only replying to my very brief single paragraph summary of my Message 1419, not Message 1419 itself where the arguments supporting my points were actually laid out. How convenient for you to only have to reply to extremely short clauses. Are you congenitally unable to behave with honor and integrity and fairness, or must your behavior always be in ways that are self-serving and advantageous for you.

In your entire time here have I ever abandoned a discussion, or said I was going to abandon a discussion then not abandoned it, or given one of your detailed posts a one sentence reply, or typed in all caps, or wished eternal damnation upon you, and on and on? The answer is no. Then why do you do this to me and everyone else over and over again. It's simply unforgivable, not to mention incredibly unChristian.

You say you're a sinner and that though you try to measure up to being a Christian that you often fail, but your behavior isn't even as good as the worst behaving atheist here, and this has been going on for years. During all your time here you haven't become a better Christian, you've become worse. You should take a careful look at your Christianity, because it isn't making you a better person but a worse one. You've been suckered into a cultish branch of evangelicalism that teaches hate and calls it love.

Thank you for saying you're sorry, but it would take too big a mountain of apologies to make up for all your trespasses against others, so don't even try. The best way you can show you're sorry is to stop doing these things.

It doesn't change the fact that your religious beliefs are not facts,

Only to you, to me they are, and I don't think your opinion gets to trump mine in this situation.

Your religious beliefs may seem like facts to you, but unless you have not an ounce of ability to look at things from other points of view, you also know that most people in the world do not share your viewpoint. No one else is obligated to consider your views facts. That is why you are the one who is confused. It is also why so many of your posts are mere declarations of what you believe with not an ounce of supporting evidence or argument, as if merely stating your beliefs was sufficient evidence in itself.

that there's murder in the Bible, too,

Which is always presented as historical fact, not something addressed to the reader to be carried out, as the Koran does, which has been explained a million times at EvC, but I guess you just refuse to believe it.

Why, thank you so much for replying to this extremely brief one-clause summary of a longer argument from my Message 1419. I am just so thankful for the opportunity to type my argument all over again. You are so wonderful. I just sing your praises.

Try Joshua 6, for one example. The Bible and Koran are peas in a pod. You like the book that is yours and hate the one that is not. Had you been raised in Iran you'd be as fervent about the Koran as you are about the Bible.

that you were wrong about immigration policy under Obama,

If so I'll apologize but I'll have to find out first.

As I said in Message 1419 (again, thank you for making me repeat this), even your hero Mr. Trump contradicts you. From Trump’s new deportation plan: Do what Obama is doing but ‘with a lot more energy’.

quote:
"What people don't know is that Obama got tremendous numbers of people out of the country."

This also indicates that your news sources are failing you. It's well known that deportations under Obama were up. It was one of the things Democrats consistently criticized him for, and it was frequently reported in the press. Or maybe sites like Drudge and Breitbart aren't as thorough and honest in reporting the news as your think? Something to consider. You might recall that several months ago when challenged to come up with any examples where the reality-based media reported fake news that you never responded with any. You might not like the opinion pages of the New York Times and the Washington Post, but you can trust their news reporting.

that Islam does not teach killing infidels,

As I said, how you could possibly think this is hard to explain, considering all the information out there about how it does. It must be some kind of self-induced blindness.

Just like the Bible is not Christianity (Christians don't stone anyone anymore), the Koran is not Islam. Islam the religion no more teaches killing infidels than Christianity the religion teaches stoning people.

that love is not "obeying the commandments",

Did you miss where I said it is a condensation of the second tablet of the Ten Commandments, which Jesus himself explained in Matthew 22:39

No, Jesus did not say anything about "Love thy neighbor as thyself" being a condensation of the second tablet of the Ten Commandments in Matthew 22:39. Look it up. No wonder Jar keeps asking if you if you've even read the Bible. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" is exactly what I said it was back in Message 1405, a version of the golden rule.

The correspondence you note with the second tablet of the Ten Commandments is also true, but it is not true that, "Love is obeying the commandments," which is what you said in Message 1417.

But we only got off down this rathole because you said love didn't mean what I think it means. I think it means very much what I think it means. For you love is a bunch of rules you make up that you then force on other people. For me love is wishing the very best for people, and not my idea of what is best for them, but their own.

Others are under no obligation to believe the same things you do,

Of course, but they are under an obligation in a debate to recognize that I believe it,...

That's a ridiculous thing to imply. Where did I ever deny that you believe what you claim to believe?

...but I find you imposing your view of it on me instead, insisting aggressively that "[my] beliefs are not facts."

Your beliefs are very definitely not facts. Facts are true for everyone. Religious beliefs are personal and are true for the individual who holds them.

and they certainly do not deserve ill treatment when they don't.

If that truly describes anything I've done, I'm truly sorry.

Show your sorry by loving them with all your heart (Skip the nonsense about me not having the right definition of heart - that's just more hate from you. You know very well what definition of the word heart I'm using, and since you're usually so irascible here it is anyway: The heart regarded as the centre of a person's thoughts and emotions, especially love or compassion.).

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1424 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 9:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1432 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 3:14 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1434 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2017 12:41 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28932
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1432 of 1540 (826170)
12-23-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1431 by Percy
12-23-2017 2:54 PM


Re: Oh well
...

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1431 by Percy, posted 12-23-2017 2:54 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17432
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1433 of 1540 (826173)
12-23-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1425 by Faith
12-22-2017 10:00 PM


Re: Samantha Bee Asks Why Evangelicals Support Trump
Faith writes:

Didn't Jesus say something about loving your enemies? Matthew 5:44?

Yes, our PERSONAL enemies, and loving anyone never means treating their wrong doctrine as true.

Where in Matthew 4:44 does it say "PERSONAL enemies":

quote:
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Have you even read the Bible?

And why is someone you believe has a "wrong doctrine" your enemy? Maybe that's your whole problem, you see people who disagree with you or who hold different views as your enemy.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1425 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 10:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1435 by Faith, posted 12-24-2017 8:46 AM Percy has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1111
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1434 of 1540 (826181)
12-24-2017 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1431 by Percy
12-23-2017 2:54 PM


Obama the "Deporter-in-chief"!
I had no clue I would find myself commenting on any of this talk.

But, something came up.

quote:

It's well known that deportations under Obama were up. It was one of the things Democrats consistently criticized him for, and it was frequently reported in the press. Or maybe sites like Drudge and Breitbart aren't as thorough and honest in reporting the news as your think? Something to consider.

I have a lot of trouble in the Midwest telling people that Obama was criticized a lot over immigration policy out east.

I often hear Trump fanatics say, "Obama deported so many people, but liberals never attacked him".

I have to tell people that there was a lot of criticism but it seems suddenly to get dropped while 1 million other issues get brought up.

This is a real issue here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1431 by Percy, posted 12-23-2017 2:54 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28932
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1435 of 1540 (826186)
12-24-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1433 by Percy
12-23-2017 3:58 PM


Re: Samantha Bee Asks Why Evangelicals Support Trump
It's very clear from the context of what you quoted from Matthew that it's talking about personal enemies.

And why is someone you believe has a "wrong doctrine" your enemy? Maybe that's your whole problem, you see people who disagree with you or who hold different views as your enemy.

You misread that.

As for your other post there's no point in explaining again to deaf ears how you are totally ignorant of the meaning of the Bible since all you do is repeat your ignorant views even more aggressively with even more aggressive character assassination to back them up. (You seem to have discovered the value of intimidating people in a debate as promoted by the Left, such as I spelled out in the thread about Leftist Totalitarian tactics, (Message 1), which David Horowitz said in the video I posted there is an aping of moralistic fire and brimstone "Christian" preaching aimed at destroying character. It's quite a piece of self-deception you've pulled off in persuading yourself that you are just being descriptive and not violating the rule against personal attacks.)

Oh, and somewhere back there you said I was the one who brought up Trump. Well, I wasn't. You brought him up under the very title of this post.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1433 by Percy, posted 12-23-2017 3:58 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1436 by Percy, posted 12-25-2017 8:04 AM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17432
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1436 of 1540 (826196)
12-25-2017 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1435 by Faith
12-24-2017 8:46 AM


Does True Christian Faith Mean Loving All?
Merry Christmas!

Celebration of Christmas and the exchange of presents will be delayed today. Snow began falling last night and will continue through much of the day. When it stops I'll clear the driveway, we'll gather together, and Christmas will begin! For now we sit and wait by the fire listening to Christmas carols.

Faith writes:

It's very clear from the context of what you quoted from Matthew that it's talking about personal enemies.

I doubt I could ever convince you otherwise, but it doesn't take a follower of Jesus to know that his message was worldwide. We are to love one and all, both those we know and those we don't, those who are near and those who are far, all our fellow man.

As for your other post there's no point in explaining again to deaf ears how you are totally ignorant of the meaning of the Bible...

I may be ignorant of what you think the Bible means, but not its true meaning.

...since all you do is repeat your ignorant views even more aggressively with even more aggressive character assassination to back them up.

I can't assassinate your character. If your words express love then everyone can see that for themselves, and if they express hate then people can see that, too. If I say your message is one of hate when it isn't then I only assassinate my own character. Clearly you don't like me calling attention to what you say, but I can't ignore your words when I reply to your posts - that would make no sense, and besides, they are the elephant in the room.

Oh, and somewhere back there you said I was the one who brought up Trump.

In Message 1409 I presented a YouTube video of Samantha Bee asking why evangelicals support Trump. It was meant to raise the question of why evangelicals, supposedly people of deep faith, support someone who is the antithesis of much of what they believe, and are they following their faith or what is politically expedient? It wasn't meant to turn the thread into a discussion of Trump, but you replied with a character assassination of A. R. Bernard and expressions of support for Trump. On this day of Christmas perhaps you can say a small prayer for Trump, Bernard, and Samantha Bee, wishing them happiness in their lives.

There were times when attempting to turn the discussion back to the topic of faith that you replied about Trump. That's all I meant in Message 1422. I've changed the message subtitle.

But on this day of Christmas and throughout the year I wish that you may find the truth you're looking for, and that it leads you to greater happiness.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1435 by Faith, posted 12-24-2017 8:46 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1437 by Faith, posted 12-25-2017 12:43 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28932
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1437 of 1540 (826205)
12-25-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1436 by Percy
12-25-2017 8:04 AM


Re: Does True Christian Faith Mean Loving All?
Matthew 23 should show that Jesus was far from preaching the kind of love you have in mind.

Matt 23:33-35 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

The prophets were men sent by God to convict the people of sin. Instead of heeding them the Jewish leaders killed them. Among other things gay marriage is sin, abortion is sin, and the job of the prophetic voice is to make such things clear, and call the nation as well as individual sinners to repentance. Loving the sinner does not mean justifying or accommodating to the sin, it means calling sinners to repentance and salvation. You're on the wrong side of this but oh how you hate those on the right side of it.

I hate what God hates and love what He loves. When someone is so committed to putting evil for good and good for evil as you are, and actually condemns the truthtellers it's best to end the discussion. My problem is that it's hard to end any discussion but I'll try very hard this time..

ABE: About Trump. I don't condemn PEOPLE as you do, as the Left does. I don't condemn gays or anybody else and I don't condemn sinners in the White House. While it would be nice to have a squeaky clean President we haven't had one for a long time and unless they are actually criminal, which Clinton may have been, what matters is their policies. Evangelicals HATE the Left's totalitarian policies. Trump is for true freedom. We're for what he is for. Whether he can pull it off is a completely other question.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1436 by Percy, posted 12-25-2017 8:04 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1440 by Percy, posted 12-26-2017 9:56 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28932
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1438 of 1540 (826206)
12-25-2017 12:56 PM


One last thing:

WAKE UP, PHAT, FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, WAKE UP!

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1439 by Phat, posted 12-26-2017 9:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10888
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1439 of 1540 (826225)
12-26-2017 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1438 by Faith
12-25-2017 12:56 PM


Wakie Wakie
In what way or ways am I asleep?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1438 by Faith, posted 12-25-2017 12:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17432
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1440 of 1540 (826226)
12-26-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1437 by Faith
12-25-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Does True Christian Faith Mean Loving All?
Well, it stopped snowing around noontime yesterday, so we had the driveway cleared by 1 PM and Christmas underway by 2 PM. A great time was had by all! One side comment: It's evidently hard to get snowplow drivers to come out on Christmas, the roads were terrible until pretty late in the day.

Faith writes:

Matthew 23 should show that Jesus was far from preaching the kind of love you have in mind.

Matt 23:33-35 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

This passage isn't about love, I doubt it's anything Jesus really said, and I don't believe Jesus really existed anyway. We've already established that Christian religions, including yours, pick and choose which parts of the Bible they're going to follow. You all just invent post hoc rationalizations for what you want to believe.

Among other things gay marriage is sin, abortion is sin,...

And you're hell bent on enforcing your views of sin on others.

Loving the sinner does not mean justifying or accommodating to the sin, it means calling sinners to repentance and salvation.

Yes, that's precisely what I said, that you're imposing your own rules on others and calling it love.

I hate what God hates and love what He loves.

What happened to the God of love? This is you in Message 1197:

Faith in Message 1197 writes:

God is a God of love, period.

You've been backtracking from this ever since you said it, but it is the only honest thing you've said on this subject.

When someone is so committed to putting evil for good and good for evil as you are, and actually condemns the truthtellers it's best to end the discussion.

You make it sound like you think your God's judge on earth.

ABE: About Trump...While it would be nice to have a squeaky clean President...

This thread isn't about Trump, but as long as you bring him up...

We'd just like to have a president who isn't a slimebag scumball pathological liar, sometimes for himself and sometimes just for the heck of it.

...unless they are actually criminal, which Clinton may have been,...

In this country politicians of integrity don't seek to lock up their political opponents.

Evangelicals HATE the Left's totalitarian policies.

Making things better for people, say by providing them decent healthcare or not deporting them, is not totalitarianism. You evangelicals are never happy unless you're making someone miserable.

Trump is for true freedom.

Sure, that's why he starts up chants of, "Lock her up, lock her up," at his rallies.

We're for what he is for.

That's very sad, because Trump is for himself and no one else. He is petty, petulant, megalomaniacal, narcissistic, crass, vulgar, crude, manipulative, deceiving, ignorant, egotistical, racist, bigoted, unfit, arrogant, impulsive, incompetent.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1437 by Faith, posted 12-25-2017 12:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1441 by Faith, posted 12-26-2017 2:59 PM Percy has responded

    
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