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Author Topic:   Elections are won in the primaries
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6229
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 46 of 113 (821066)
10-02-2017 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
09-30-2017 4:17 PM


Re: Voting for candidates -- in the republican primary
RAZD writes:

quote:
The democrats have, apparently, no idea of what a core issue is that is of concern to the voters.

Yeah...the second largest vote total in history. They clearly have no idea what voters want.

quote:
They effectively hog-tied Obama's second term

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! They hog-tied Obama's *FIRST* term. Have you forgotten that the Republicans literally had a secret meeting on the very night of Obama's first inauguration to specifically plan how to obstruct his entire agenda and ensure that he only had one term?

quote:
and would have done the same to Hillary ... unless they could magically win house and senate seats, which Hillary was incapable of doing.

Right...because they would have rolled over for Sanders...as if he was capable of magically winning Congress. Please explain how Sanders was going to get Congress to pass a $15 minimum wage.

quote:
It was -- and still is -- a(n increasing) failure to have and promote core issues that appeal to voters.

Yep...second largest vote count in history. They know nothing about what appeals to voters.

quote:
Which only would have delayed the inevitable descent into the maelstrom.

Says who? Is your cognitive dissonance still affecting you? By your logic, Sanders would have hardly been any better. After all, he had a 93% concordance with Clinton. And with folks like Elizabeth Warren signing off on Clinton's Wall Street plan, I guess that means she's a shill so there would be no help from any Democrats.

quote:
don't exist in the DNC. Look at Wasserman-Schultz for example, and Pelosi (who thinks we are doing fine), and the new imposed chairman of the DNC ...

BWAHAHAHAHA! You honestly believe that, don't you? Your cognitive dissonance is truly deep, isn't it?

quote:
Except that it has been -- and was -- independent voters that elected the president.

So let's work this through: Clinton beat Sanders in a Democratic primary by more votes than she beat Trump by and got the second largest vote total in history, but somehow she doesn't connect with voters.

Hmmm...Wisconsin had a voter suppression of 200,000 and how many votes did she lose it by? What about Pennsylvania and Michigan? It has long been known that the country regularly votes more for the Democrat than the Republian...and yet somehow the Republicans are in charge of the country. There are system problems among the leadership of the Democrats, yes, but let's not pretend that there aren't other forces at play. After all, these problems have long preceded 2016.

quote:
Except that it is about issues that get voters to the ballots, not Bernie. Bernie was popular because he had the issues that appealed to the voters.

And yet, in a contest of Democrats, Clinton beat him by a million more votes than she beat Trump...whom she beat, as you seem to have forgotten.

quote:
Bernie won the open primaries because the independents could vote.

No, he didn't. Your cognitive dissonance over this has led to your protracted Clinton Derangement Syndrome. For those states that held open or semi-open contests, Clinton won four more states than Bernie did:

Four open caucuses of which Bernie won all 4.
Two semi-open caucuses of which Bernie won 1 and Clinton won 1.
Seventeen open primaries of which Bernie won 5 and Clinton won 12.
One semi-open primary which Clinton won.
Eleven closed caucuses of which Bernie won 6 and Clinton won 5.
One semi-closed caucus which Bernie won.
Fourteen closed primaries of which Bernie won 2 and Clinton won 12.
Nine semi-closed primaries of which Bernie won 4 and Clinton won 5.

And again, simply going off of raw votes, Clinton had 4 million more votes than Sanders. That's a million more votes than she beat Trump by. The idea that the system was "rigged" against Sanders is nothing more than your cognitive dissonance.

He lost.

Not only did he lose the nomination, he lost by your own criterion: Open primaries. 12 to 4. Even with all the open or semi-open races, Clinton won more.

And again, she got the second largest number of votes in history.

quote:
He lost the closed primaries because the independents couldn't vote.

Nope. He lost the closed primaries because the voters preferred Clinton. That's why she beat him by more votes than she beat Trump.

quote:
As long as dems ignore and belittle independent voters they will continue to lose. It's simple math.

And as long as your cognitive dissonance is in charge, you're going to continue to believe that.

Clinton won both liberals (84-10) and moderates (52-41). She didn't win those who identify as "independent," but the label "independent" doesn't mean they actually consider voting for either candidate. In fact, independents regularly vote for their candidate. I, for example, am not a Democrat but an Independent...but I have never voted for a Republican.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 09-30-2017 4:17 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2017 8:51 AM Rrhain has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19324
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 47 of 113 (821069)
10-02-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Rrhain
10-02-2017 3:38 AM


Re: Voting for candidates -- in the republican primary
Yeah...the second largest vote total in history. They clearly have no idea what voters want.

How many house seats did they take back from the republicans
How many senate seats did they take back from the republicans
How many governor positions did they take back from the republicans
How many state house seats did they take back from the republicans
How many state senate seats did they take back from the republicans
How many mayoral positions did they take back from the republicans.

Yeah, the democrats know what the voters want.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! They hog-tied Obama's *FIRST* term. Have you forgotten that the Republicans literally had a secret meeting on the very night of Obama's first inauguration to specifically plan how to obstruct his entire agenda and ensure that he only had one term?

So you agree with me that he was hog-tied in the *SECOND* term, thanks.

Right...because they would have rolled over for Sanders...as if he was capable of magically winning Congress. Please explain how Sanders was going to get Congress to pass a $15 minimum wage.

By stumping for it at the state level -- you should read what he said about it. Curiously we are still winning that battle as $15/hr is still being won -- see recent article on Target.

Yep...second largest vote count in history. They know nothing about what appeals to voters.

How many house seats did they take back from the republicans
How many senate seats did they take back from the republicans
How many governor positions did they take back from the republicans
How many state house seats did they take back from the republicans
How many state senate seats did they take back from the republicans
How many mayoral positions did they take back from the republicans.

Yeah, the democrats know what the voters want.

Says who? Is your cognitive dissonance still affecting you? By your logic, Sanders would have hardly been any better. After all, he had a 93% concordance with Clinton. And with folks like Elizabeth Warren signing off on Clinton's Wall Street plan, I guess that means she's a shill so there would be no help from any Democrats.

We now see Elizabeth Warren signing on to his Medicare for All policy. What success he had would depend on how many down-ticket seats were won.

So let's work this through: Clinton beat Sanders in a Democratic primary ...

Because of the primary system. How many independents voted for her in NY. Hint: it was a closed primary and you had to be registered as democrat before the first debate happened. Then there was the registration purge in NY that dropped more voters in Bernie's home district than Hillary voters. By the state dem party.

... by more votes than she beat Trump ...

Except in states that voted for Trump -- in our election system total votes doesn't count in the Electoral College because states (except two) have chosen winner take all for electoral votes. She knew this better that anyone else in this race but failed to campaign in those critical states in a way that won votes.

Jill Stein got votes because Hillary did not earn those votes. You can't blame misogyny for that, and you can't blame Bernie for that, it falls squarely on Hillary's gucci padded shoulders.

... by and got the second largest vote total in history, but somehow she doesn't connect with voters.

Not where it mattered. Not where working people that had been shafted by the economic crunch and lost homes and savings and were taking low paying jobs to get by, working people that wanted needed something different that what they had gotten in the last 8 years, while Wall Street prospered.

Hmmm...Wisconsin had a voter suppression of 200,000 and how many votes did she lose it by? What about Pennsylvania and Michigan? It has long been known that the country regularly votes more for the Democrat than the Republian...and yet somehow the Republicans are in charge of the country. There are system problems among the leadership of the Democrats, yes, but let's not pretend that there aren't other forces at play. After all, these problems have long preceded 2016.

System problems in the DNC, in the primary setup with superdelegates, in the gerrymandering of states, in voter suppression, and in the electoral college. She more than the other candidates knew this and still failed to earn the votes in the critical areas.

And yet, in a contest of Democrats, Clinton beat him by a million more votes than she beat Trump...whom she beat, as you seem to have forgotten.

See above. You're repeating yourself. The race was close enough that the superdelegates controlled who won and could have picked either candidate for the president ticket.

Nope. He lost the closed primaries because the voters preferred Clinton. That's why she beat him by more votes than she beat Trump.

Because independent voters were blocked and because of the timing of the primaries. And superdelegates.

Clinton won both liberals (84-10) and moderates (52-41). She didn't win those who identify as "independent," but the label "independent" doesn't mean they actually consider voting for either candidate. In fact, independents regularly vote for their candidate. I, for example, am not a Democrat but an Independent...but I have never voted for a Republican.

Good for you. Now break it down by economic class.

If the whole state of California had voted for Hillary 100% she would still have the same number of electoral college votes.

... She didn't win those who identify as "independent," ...

Yep, she didn't earn those votes, and that is why she lost the race. That's what the math says. Blaming anyone other than Hillary and the DNC is just poor loser childish bickering.

Blaming Jill Stein and Bernie and misogyny etc etc etc and not Hillary and the DNC is being foolish -- you can't solve a problem until you define the problem properly.

It won't help them win any seats in 2018. Issues like $15/hr minimum wage, medicare for all, family leave, and others that benefit working people will.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Rrhain, posted 10-02-2017 3:38 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Rrhain, posted 10-03-2017 12:54 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6229
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 48 of 113 (821140)
10-03-2017 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by RAZD
10-02-2017 8:51 AM


Re: Voting for candidates -- in the republican primary
RAZD responds to me:

quote:
How many house seats did they take back from the republicans
How many senate seats did they take back from the republicans
How many governor positions did they take back from the republicans
How many state house seats did they take back from the republicans
How many state senate seats did they take back from the republicans
How many mayoral positions did they take back from the republicans.

Yeah, the democrats know what the voters want.


Right...because the electoral playing field is level.

You do understand that because of gerrymandering and voter suppression, it takes millions of more votes for a Democrat to win a seat in Congress than for a Republican, yes? More people voted for the Democrat than voted for the Republican and yet somehow, Congress is in Republican control.

So yeah, Democrats do know what voters want. You're so fond of Sanders' claim that "the system is rigged," but you're failing to see how.

quote:
So you agree with me that he was hog-tied in the *SECOND* term, thanks.

So you still fail to understand that he was hog-tied *IMMEDIATELY.* You're trying to find significance in the second term by ignoring that the exact same thing happened in the first, thus showing that the problem was not a "first term/second term" thing.

And you wonder why you keep failing.

quote:
By stumping for it at the state level -- you should read what he said about it. Curiously we are still winning that battle as $15/hr is still being won -- see recent article on Target.

And have you read Clinton's statement regarding the minimum wage? If that is truly the hill you're dying on, why the hell are you upset with her?

Did she want to raise it?
To what?
Why did she think that amount was the one to raise it to?
Would she have been OK with more?

Did you really just vote to install a President that actually said that wages are too high because the alternative wasn't aiming high enough in your opinion? Do you honestly believe that if Congress had come up with a plan that would raise the minimum wage to $15 with policies for managing the costs and other effects, Clinton would have vetoed it because it was "too high"?

quote:
We now see Elizabeth Warren signing on to his Medicare for All policy.

That doesn't answer my question. Is Elizabeth Warren a shill for Wall Street? She signed off on Clinton's Wall Street policy.

Do you even know what it was?

quote:
Because of the primary system.

Nope. Because she won. The details have been spelled out for. Open or closed, Clinton beat Sanders.

By a lot.

By more raw votes than she beat Trump.

quote:
Good for you. Now break it down by economic class.

And since unemployment was at some of its lowest points, what does that tell you about why they were voting the way they were? You seem to think that Republicans actually pay attention to reality. There's a reason we talk about that "basket of deplorables." When they are told that stole their jobs, they're not going to pay attention to explanations about automation, financial policy, changes in economic markets, and the like.

If you're from a coal state and you are told that Democrats "hate coal" and that's why there are so few coal jobs, you're not going to listen to the facts regarding the case...and it will be difficult to tell that to a coal worker who has lost their job. As I pointed out in other posts, the fact that the unemployment rate is low doesn't mean much when you're the one out of a job.

You are making the creationist argument, RAZD: Facts be damned.

quote:
Blaming anyone other than Hillary and the DNC is just poor loser childish bickering.

Ignoring reality is just cognitive dissonance.

She won.

By a lot.

She had the second largest vote take in history.

quote:
Issues like $15/hr minimum wage, medicare for all, family leave, and others that benefit working people will.

Clinton was for all of that.

Why don't you know that?

You keep saying that she didn't "earn" your vote and you give criteria by which she would have "earned" that vote and yet you keep ignoring the reality that she met those criteria.

So since she met the criteria you put forward as what it takes to "earn" your vote, why didn't she?

Your cognitive dissonance is massive.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2017 8:51 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 49 of 113 (821408)
10-07-2017 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
09-24-2017 11:26 AM


Re: Voting for republicans
Coragyps writes:

Yes, we Texans hear you loud and clear. I have long voted in the Republican primaries, as those are typically the actual election out in this part of Texas. I try to pick the least repugnant repub, to at least try to mitigate damage - but with this area going about 85% for Trump, it doesn't help too much.
I just took the (empty) seat of County Chairman for the Democratic Party here, more to see if we can create difficulties for Ted Cruz than anything else, but I'm not very optimistic. Maybe we can get it down to 82% in 2018.

I know how difficult it is to challenge the stranglehold on West Texas rural areas the Republican Party has, which is due primarily to their racism and more generally tribalism and rejection of any concept of knowledge, empathy, or indeed the Gospels, but hell is what it is (Scurry 84%, Howard 76%).

My former post was a bit too critical in hindsight, seeing how I did the exact same thing by voting for Kay Bailey Hutchinson over indisputable and unbelievably corrupt moron Rick Perry. Your selflessness in taking on the Democratic County Chair position is commendable. The daughter has done something similar as she is now the treasurer for the black caucus of the young Democrats for Texas. Despite being white, somebody has to do it.

My point is we are, daughter and father, both DSA and trying to move the party into a more progressive, liberal, and, socialist direction (yeah I said it) despite living in this hellhole rather than trying to find the extremely rare "less evil" Republican.

As for the fascists that Trump so dearly admires and emulates, they are best suited for live target training, just as my ancestors treated them. That is where we are at.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Coragyps, posted 09-24-2017 11:26 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 10-07-2017 9:56 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 50 of 113 (821426)
10-07-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by anglagard
10-07-2017 1:05 AM


Re: Voting for republicans
I know how difficult it is to challenge the stranglehold on West Texas rural areas the Republican Party has

Some places are just out of reach of the Democratic party as it is currently configured. Some strategy is needed to reach them, but if the strategy is to become more like the currently configured Republicans, for me that is totally unacceptable.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by anglagard, posted 10-07-2017 1:05 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 10-07-2017 10:55 AM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19324
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 51 of 113 (821429)
10-07-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
10-07-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Voting for republicans
Some places are just out of reach of the Democratic party as it is currently configured. Some strategy is needed to reach them, but if the strategy is to become more like the currently configured Republicans, for me that is totally unacceptable.

Agreed, and that is why we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix. Maybe not in Texas but certainly in swing states and marginal states.

I too am a DSA member and Working Families Party, and also part of the town democrat committee and am up for membership to the state democrat committee, to try bringing FDR social democracy back to the platforms. That works fine here in RI with a heavily democrat population, but not so well for any democrats working against heavily gerrymandered districts in other states.

So radical idea: instead of beating a dead horse at the general election, take the actual election to the people by entering the republican primaries and getting everyone in the district to vote in it.

The way gerrymandering works is by stuffing as many opposition voters all into as few districts as possible and partition other districts to have a slim majority of faithful voters.

This means a small shift in the majority voters, together with the minority opposition voters also voting, could feasibly elect more progressive independent or "New Republican" candidates in the primary when they don't stand a chance in the general election.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 10-07-2017 9:56 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2017 9:58 PM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 52 of 113 (821696)
10-10-2017 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by RAZD
10-07-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Voting for republicans
"Some places are just out of reach of the Democratic party as it is currently configured. Some strategy is needed to reach them, but if the strategy is to become more like the currently configured Republicans, for me that is totally unacceptable."

RAZD replies:

"Agreed, and that is why we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix. Maybe not in Texas but certainly in swing states and marginal states."

In principle, we agree. In practice, you have already indicated that you would tolerate things from a faux Republican that I personally consider to be deal breakers.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 10-07-2017 10:55 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 7:05 AM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19324
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 53 of 113 (821698)
10-11-2017 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by NoNukes
10-10-2017 9:58 PM


Re: Voting for republicans options in the primaries
RAZD replies:

"Agreed, and that is why we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix. Maybe not in Texas but certainly in swing states and marginal states."

In principle, we agree. In practice, you have already indicated that you would tolerate things from a faux Republican that I personally consider to be deal breakers.

Curiously, I lived in Mississippi for a while, and the democrat party there was like the Massachusetts republicans, imho, so they have already moved in that direction to get elected.

In a curious twist, the news reported that Bannon is planning to have primary challenges for several republicans ... that means that my plan to put a progressive candidate in the republican party and have everyone in the district register as republican to vote in the primary could simply elect the progressive with the liberal voters while the republicans split their votes on two (or more) other candidates.

Again, the premise is that the national elections are effectively run in the primaries when the districts are heavily gerrymandered; that the "republican" districts have a slim majority of republican voters, while "democrat" districts are as full as possible of democrat voters. This means that democrats in a "republican" district could all register as republicans for the primary, and vote for a progressive (democrat in wolf clothing) candidate. With republican votes split between two or more republican candidates the progress could win by getting all the republican registered democrat/liberal/independent voters.

It seems you keep thinking this progressive candidate would be an actual republican instead of an imposter republican for the primary election.

The idea is to break the gerrymandering by using it against them.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2017 9:58 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 10-11-2017 2:48 PM RAZD has responded

  
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 54 of 113 (821708)
10-11-2017 10:49 AM


Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
I was reading Politico (I know bad habit http://www.politico.com/...vern-1972-trump-nixon-2020-215687) and they attempted to make what I see as blatantly absurd arguments comparing modern Democratic politics concerning Sanders politics to George McGovern's failed campaign 1972. This is a common fear in the party and it appears to be irrational.

1. It completely ignores the problems with the McGovern campaign including their horrible missteps with their Vice Presidential pick and assumes McGovern lost on policy.

2. It ignores modern polling on the issues it mentions including single payer and taxes (Which show the population to the left).

3. How come we never hear about Goldwater in reference to Republicans going to the right in a Libertarian economic fashion?


Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 12:13 PM DC85 has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19324
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 55 of 113 (821714)
10-11-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by DC85
10-11-2017 10:49 AM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
I was reading Politico (I know bad habit http://www.politico.com/...vern-1972-trump-nixon-2020-215687) and they attempted to make what I see as blatantly absurd arguments comparing modern Democratic politics concerning Sanders politics to George McGovern's failed campaign 1972. This is a common fear in the party and it appears to be irrational.

Indeed. But the problem for this thread is dealing with gerrymandered districts

quote:
Gerrymandering

In the process of setting electoral districts, gerrymandering is a practice intended to establish a political advantage for a particular party or group by manipulating district boundaries. The resulting district is known as a gerrymander ... however, that word can also refer to the process. The term gerrymandering has negative connotations. Two principal tactics are used in gerrymandering: "cracking" (i.e. diluting the voting power of the opposing party's supporters across many districts) and "packing" (concentrating the opposing party's voting power in one district to reduce their voting power in other districts).[1]

In addition to its use achieving desired electoral results for a particular party, gerrymandering may be used to help or hinder a particular demographic, such as a political, ethnic, racial, linguistic, religious, or class group, such as in U.S. federal voting district boundaries that produce a majority of constituents representative of African-American or other racial minorities, known as "majority-minority districts". Gerrymandering can also be used to protect incumbents.


This effectively moves the general election to the primaries for the 'yellow' party.

My argument is that we need to put progressive candidate into those primaries and have all the residents of the district register for the 'yellow' party for the primaries to vote for this candidate. If the 'yellows' have two candidates in the primary and the 'greens' only have one it is possible to elect the 'green' candidate in the primary.

This can also work in districts where the margin between the two parties is thin (5%?) if they can draw some people away from the 'yellow' candidate by having a better platform for the people. A lot of democrat candidates in those districts already try to go right to attract voters, and they could do better in the primary than in the general election.

Personally I think a platform around universal healthcare, living minimum wage and paid family leave have strong cross-party support and could provide an alternate candidate with a viable platform to campaign on. They could also portray themselves as independent thinking "new" republicans that are tired of the same old same old congress and lack of results from the incumbents.

Bannon is planning on running alt-right candidates against republicans who go against Trump, and this would be an opportunity to steal the election if the republican vote is split.

What do you think?

Enjoy

ps -- note that fair districting would result in two yellow and three green districts to reflect the whole populations diversity.

Edited by RAZD, : ps


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by DC85, posted 10-11-2017 10:49 AM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by DC85, posted 10-11-2017 1:35 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 66 by anglagard, posted 10-13-2017 2:46 AM RAZD has responded

  
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 56 of 113 (821719)
10-11-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by RAZD
10-11-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
Are you arguing that say a progressive should run as a Republican? I have been saying this for some time, in fact it is easier to run as a Republican in some states than it is a Democrat.

quote:
universal healthcare, living minimum wage and paid family leave have strong cross-party support

They do, and poll 50% or above on all , putting them in the actual political center. (as opposed to the "Center" that is told about in The Beltway)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 12:13 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 2:48 PM DC85 has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 57 of 113 (821722)
10-11-2017 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by RAZD
10-11-2017 7:05 AM


Re: Voting for republicans options in the primaries
"Curiously, I lived in Mississippi for a while, and the democrat party there was like the Massachusetts republicans, imho, so they have already moved in that direction to get elected."

From Wikipedia:

"The Mississippi Democratic Party holds one of the eight statewide offices and no majority in either legislative chambers. Mississippi Democrats hold one of the state's four U.S. House seats, and none of the state's U.S. Senate Seats.

Democrats hold 56 out of 122 seats in the Mississippi House of Representatives and 20 out of 52 seats in the Mississippi Senate."

Hardly a model to follow... No thanks.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 7:05 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 3:01 PM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19324
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 58 of 113 (821723)
10-11-2017 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by DC85
10-11-2017 1:35 PM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
Are you arguing that say a progressive should run as a Republican? I have been saying this for some time, in fact it is easier to run as a Republican in some states than it is a Democrat.

Exactly, just as it is easier to run as a democrat than a republican in RI and MA, and so we have a lot of DINOs in the state legislature.

They do, and poll 50% or above on all , putting them in the actual political center. (as opposed to the "Center" that is told about in The Beltway)

Something the DNC seems to be blind about, failing to run on these issues in the off-election in 2014 for instance (thanks Debbie WS) or have strong platforms around them in state and national committees (they do seem to be changing as more progressives are getting involved -- thanks to Bernie).

Also running without corporate funding and being an outsider against insider DC politics to represent people not corporations. That was one of the purported things in Trumps campaign.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by DC85, posted 10-11-2017 1:35 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by DC85, posted 10-11-2017 5:51 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19324
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 59 of 113 (821724)
10-11-2017 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by NoNukes
10-11-2017 2:48 PM


Re: Voting for republicans options in the primaries
you
don't
get
it

Sorry


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 10-11-2017 2:48 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 10-11-2017 5:35 PM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 60 of 113 (821738)
10-11-2017 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by RAZD
10-11-2017 3:01 PM


Re: Voting for republicans options in the primaries
You don't seem to get it. I am not going to vote for or pursue pushing a Republican who is going to act with other Republicans on some of the issues that you find tolerable. Because I find those positions intolerable.

Your mileage may vary.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 3:01 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by DC85, posted 10-11-2017 5:59 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 64 by RAZD, posted 10-12-2017 6:56 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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