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Author Topic:   Elections are won in the primaries
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 76 of 113 (821986)
10-17-2017 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
10-16-2017 2:30 PM


Re: Texas ...
Curious how people are telling me what I mean, especially when it isn't true.

You've already admitted to tolerating stuff I find intolerable. Your progressives aren't all that progressive.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2017 2:30 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 10:24 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 77 of 113 (821987)
10-17-2017 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
10-16-2017 8:02 AM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD responds to me:

quote:
The strategy is to elect a progressive to the house by winning the republican primary.

And you honestly believe that a Republican is going to vote for a Democrat for Speaker of the House?

Exactly how does a Republican being elected to the Senate result in a Democrat becoming the leader of the Senate? That isn't how the rules work. Whichever party has the majority automatically gains leadership. It doesn't matter how "good" you think your Republican is, their mere existence in the Senate guarantees that Mitch McConnell remains in control and thus, no liberal bill of any kind will ever make it to the floor.

quote:
The progressive would side with the democrats not the republicans.

BWAHAHAHA! How? By immediately defecting as soon as they're sworn in? Because given the way the rules work, that's the only way it'll happen. If the Republican decides to vote for the Democrat for Speaker, they will never get any committee assignments and thus, they will have absolutely zero influence in Congress. They won't be able to manage bills in committee and their amendments will get no co-sponsors from the majority and thus will never get put into play. And again, there is absolutely no way the Republican can change the leadership of the Senate because the rules state that their mere existence results in the Republicans having the leadership if they are in the majority.

That is the way our system of government works: Winner takes all. To vote for one is to quite literally vote for *ALL* of them. There is no such thing as a "good" Republican. If they were that good, they wouldn't be a Republican. Their mere existence as a Republican necessarily gives power to all the rest.

Cleaning up the Republican Party isn't going to happen by tricking them into voting for a progressive. You need to convince Republicans that their current candidates do not have their best interests at heart and that Democrats do.

Once the Republicans have been neutralized, you can continue your work on improving the Democratic Party. The unreliable friend is to be chosen over the guaranteed enemy.

quote:
How else do you expect to win back a majority in the house?

Working to end voter suppression, working to end gerrymandering, working to expand Democratic exposure, and doing the hard work of getting Democrats into power at the lower levels so that they are in a better position to be electable candidates at the higher levels. Beyond Dean's 50 State Strategy, we need to pay attention to every race at every level. Fake candidates do not help this. Any attempt at advancing a "liberal" agenda by a Republican will immediately be pounced upon by the "real" Republican, the voters will go along with it, and you'll end up with not just a Republican, but a Republican that will make Teabagging Republicans look like Bernie Sanders. After all, Roy Moore won his primary.

You didn't think you could just snap your fingers and make it happen, did you?

We've seen this attempt at splitting the middle before and it never works. Why is this time going to be any different?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2017 8:02 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 9:45 AM Rrhain has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 78 of 113 (821996)
10-17-2017 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by xongsmith
10-16-2017 2:55 PM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD, they won't ever get elected in the R primaries. The talk radios will kill them before arrival. You're counting on no brains from the R side.

So the answer is to curl up on your couch and wish republicans would all die?

Or do you try to do something about it, try to change the dialogue.

Talk radio will only talk to the radio heads, not the general public, the people who are tired of congress (low approval rating) and want some progress.

What is your solution or do you just give up.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by xongsmith, posted 10-16-2017 2:55 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 10-17-2017 11:57 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 79 of 113 (821997)
10-17-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Rrhain
10-17-2017 3:06 AM


Re: Texas ...
And you honestly believe that a Republican is going to vote for a Democrat for Speaker of the House?

Exactly how does a Republican being elected to the Senate result in a Democrat becoming the leader of the Senate? That isn't how the rules work. Whichever party has the majority automatically gains leadership. ...

By doing it in enough districts that the democrats get a majority.

Cleaning up the Republican Party isn't going to happen by tricking them into voting for a progressive. ...

Still not the plan.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Rrhain, posted 10-17-2017 3:06 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Rrhain, posted 10-18-2017 3:23 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 80 of 113 (821999)
10-17-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by NoNukes
10-17-2017 1:48 AM


Re: Texas ...
You've already admitted to tolerating stuff I find intolerable. Your progressives aren't all that progressive.

Again you are blinding yourself, the plan is to elect someone not-a-republican in the republican primary. I would call that person a progressive republican for the purpose of the primary. Once you have that then, either that person wins the general or a democrat wins the general. In either case you then have not-a-republican in the house.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 10-17-2017 1:48 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 10-18-2017 10:50 AM RAZD has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 81 of 113 (822007)
10-17-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by RAZD
10-17-2017 9:42 AM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD writes:

So the answer is to curl up on your couch and wish republicans would all die?


The answer is to vote against Republicans.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 9:42 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 9:21 PM ringo has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 82 of 113 (822034)
10-17-2017 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
10-17-2017 11:57 AM


Re: Texas ...
The answer is to vote against Republicans.

In the republican primary for a progressive candidate running against the republicans in the primary where the district is gerrymandered to essentially guarantee the republican candidate picked in the primary will win the general election.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 10-17-2017 11:57 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Rrhain, posted 10-18-2017 3:29 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 10-18-2017 3:20 PM RAZD has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 83 of 113 (822035)
10-18-2017 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by RAZD
10-17-2017 9:45 AM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD responds to me:

quote:
quote:
Exactly how does a Republican being elected to the Senate result in a Democrat becoming the leader of the Senate? That isn't how the rules work. Whichever party has the majority automatically gains leadership. ...

By doing it in enough districts that the democrats get a majority.

You do realize that that is literally the opposite of your strategy, right? You are advocating putting a "progressive" *Republican* candidate in the primary. When that candidate wins (which will never happen because the "real" Republicans will immediately call them out as "liberal" and will get absolutely no assistance from the Republican Party), their mere existence will prevent the Democrats from gaining control of the Senate.

So I ask you again: How does a Republican being elected to the Senate result in a Democrat becoming the leader of the Senate?

quote:
quote:
Cleaning up the Republican Party isn't going to happen by tricking them into voting for a progressive. ...

Still not the plan.

You can "plan" for 2 + 2 to equal 5, but that doesn't actually happen. Your whining about how "that isn't the plan!" doesn't change the actual results of your suggestion.

But that said, that is *precisely* what your plan is. You said so yourself, or have you forgotten your own argument out of some absurd need to be contrary given that you've been shown how it falls apart upon contact with reality?

Message 51

Agreed, and that is why we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix.

Now, do please explain how "we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix" is not merely another way of saying, "Cleaning up the Republican Party"?

For crying out loud, RAZD, your *original post* said exactly the same thing:

The way the gerrymandering has taken over the elections for representatives and senators -- with the tacit compliance of both parties -- it has now reached the point, imho, that the elections are won in the primaries.

Progressives are not going to change the democratic party from the inside.

Third party challenges rarely result in victory.

Time to run alternative candidates in republican primaries ...

Fiscally conservative
Working family centered

How is that not merely another way of saying, "Cleaning up the Republican Party"?

Exactly what is the point of these "alternative" candidates if not to change the Republican Party?

Ignoring the cognitive dissonance involved in your different analysis of Republicans and Democrats (if you can't "change the Democratic Party from the inside," exactly how do you plan on doing that with the Republicans? And if you can with the R, what makes you think you can't with the D?) you are being deliberately obtuse.

When you said that your plan was specifically to change the Republican Party, we believed you. For you now to whine that that isn't the plan means you repeated direct statements that isn't "the plan" means you weren't being exactly honest at some point.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 9:45 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by RAZD, posted 10-18-2017 7:16 AM Rrhain has responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 84 of 113 (822036)
10-18-2017 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by RAZD
10-17-2017 9:21 PM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD writes:

quote:
In the republican primary for a progressive candidate running against the republicans in the primary where the district is gerrymandered to essentially guarantee the republican candidate picked in the primary will...

...lose in the primary and should there be a miracle and said Republican wins, said Republican will sell out all those "progressive" principles quite literally on the first day when in the House, they vote for the Republican Speaker of the House and in the Senate, their mere existence ensures Republicans maintain control. And by ensuring that Republicans retain control of Congress, no progressive legislation will ever see the light of day. Should they betray the Republican principles that the rest of the Party advocates, they ensure that they will get no committee assignments, no support from the Party for election, and will have absolutely no influence in the very body that they were elected to "introduce new ideas" into.

A fake Republican is still a Republican.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 9:21 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by RAZD, posted 10-18-2017 7:17 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 85 of 113 (822049)
10-18-2017 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Rrhain
10-18-2017 3:23 AM


Re: Texas ...
wrong again.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Rrhain, posted 10-18-2017 3:23 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 1:38 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 86 of 113 (822050)
10-18-2017 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Rrhain
10-18-2017 3:29 AM


Re: Texas ...
and still wrong.

This is getting entertaining, seeing how wrong you can be over a very simple concept.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Rrhain, posted 10-18-2017 3:29 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 87 of 113 (822058)
10-18-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by RAZD
10-17-2017 10:24 AM


Re: Texas ...
I would call that person a progressive republican for the purpose of the primary.

I would never call that person you describe a progressive. The Republican party is all about not being progressive. Their platform is anything but progressive. You seem to think that being moderate on a few issues, issues which nearly every Democrat is on board with, means somebody worth my time.

My situation is this. I live in a district where the Republicans cannot win. I don't get to vote in a Republican-stacked district because I don't live there. My current Congressman is good but not perfect, but I don't want him replaced by any Republican. Our two senators, on the other hand, are a piece of work. However, that is not for a lack of opposition. Their opponents were worthy folks who could have been elected if Democrats bothered to vote

But in those stacked districts, the Republicans compete on who can be the most unliberal. People are actually voting against universal health care and expanding the minimum wage even though they are as poor as dirt. Your strategy is to try to sneak a "progressive" by folks who apparently consider real liberals "commies."

Again you are blinding yourself,

Or perhaps, you've gotten used to your own off-key singing.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 10:24 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 10-18-2017 12:41 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 92 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 8:27 AM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 88 of 113 (822066)
10-18-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by NoNukes
10-18-2017 10:50 AM


Still not getting it
Still
Not
Getting
It

But in those stacked districts, the Republicans compete on who can be the most unliberal. People are actually voting against universal health care and expanding the minimum wage even though they are as poor as dirt. Your strategy is to try to sneak a "progressive" by folks who apparently consider real liberals "commies."

My strategy is to get the liberal progressive voters in those districts to register as republicans to vote for a liberal progressive candidate in the republican primary. With one liberal progressive candidate against a field of republicans that split the republican votes, the liberal progressive could win the primary.

So simple. It makes gerrymandering work against them instead of for them.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 10-18-2017 10:50 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 1:44 AM RAZD has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 89 of 113 (822069)
10-18-2017 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by RAZD
10-17-2017 9:21 PM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD writes:

In the republican primary for a progressive candidate running against the republicans in the primary where the district is gerrymandered to essentially guarantee the republican candidate picked in the primary will win the general election.


Is there a main clause in that "sentence"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 9:21 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2017 8:55 AM ringo has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 90 of 113 (822087)
10-19-2017 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by RAZD
10-18-2017 7:16 AM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD responds to me:

quote:
wrong again.

Says who? You? Why should we believe you? You've already shown amazing cognitive dissonance regarding this topic. What makes you think you are reliable now? After all, your opening post contradicts you, RAZD. Have you changed your mind?

See, here's where you would attempt to rephrase your argument so that it wouldn't be misunderstood. That you're running away instead would seem to indicate that no, we're not wrong, you just can't defend your argument. You're sure it's right but can't explain why. Thus, the cognitive dissonance that you're so fond of accusing everybody else of.

Let me help you: What is the point of running a "progressive" Republican in the primary in districts that are gerrymandered such that only a Republican can win?

Key points you must address:


  • Could such a candidate even win? After all, the Republican machine will tear a "progressive" candidate to shreds and the Republicans in the Republican district will vote for the "real" Republican. So what's the point of running such a candidate?

  • Should a miracle occur and this candidate win, what would be the effects? The rules of Congress indicate that an elected Republican will then put other Republicans in charge of the House and Senate, ensuring that no "progressive" bills will ever see the light of day. Should this candidate fight against this tendency, they will be punished by the Republicans in power, making them ineffective. So again, what is the point of running such a candidate?

Remember, you said, and I quote:

that is why we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix.

So if that is not merely another way of saying, "Cleaning up the Republican Party," then what on earth does it mean?

Exactly what is the point of running a "progressive" Republican?

Be specific.

Edited by Rrhain, : Fixing comma splice.

Edited by Rrhain, : But apparently introducing another one.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by RAZD, posted 10-18-2017 7:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2017 9:27 AM Rrhain has responded

    
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