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Author Topic:   Elections are won in the primaries
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 91 of 113 (822088)
10-19-2017 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by RAZD
10-18-2017 12:41 PM


Re: Still not getting it
RAZD writes:

quote:
My strategy is to get the liberal progressive voters in those districts to register as republicans to vote for a liberal progressive candidate in the republican primary. With one liberal progressive candidate against a field of republicans that split the republican votes, the liberal progressive could win the primary.

No, they couldn't.

It's been tried.

It has failed.

Democrats have tried it in the other direction: Running as a conservative in an attempt to get the disaffected Republicans to vote for them. Instead, the electorate voted for the "real" conservative. Why have Republican-lite when you can have the real thing? Have you forgotten the Ossoff election? While he was technically a Democrat, he opposed many of the core ideals of the platform, touting his conservative credentials.

And he lost. Oh, it was a lot closer than it should have been, but that isn't because the electorate was really warming up to "progressive" ideas but rather because they were pissed at Trump. And still, he couldn't get it together.

So since this has never worked, and since you insist that this isn't an attempt to clean up the Republican Party (despite you directly saying that it is), exactly what is the point?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 10-18-2017 12:41 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2017 8:57 AM Rrhain has responded

    
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 92 of 113 (822096)
10-19-2017 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by NoNukes
10-18-2017 10:50 AM


Re: Texas ...
Their platform is anything but progressive.

You are aware that at one time the Republicans WERE the progressive party, right? How do you suppose the change happened?

But in those stacked districts, the Republicans compete on who can be the most unliberal

Ahhh but interestingly enough polling shows a good amount of Republicans are actually liberal on issues of economics. People in poverty in Alabama don't want tax cuts for the wealthy , that's just absurd. Hammer economics and you have a chance of winning,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 10-18-2017 10:50 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2017 9:40 AM DC85 has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 93 of 113 (822098)
10-19-2017 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
10-18-2017 3:20 PM


Re: Texas ...
Is there a main clause in that "sentence"?

I was just extending what you said in Message 81

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 10-18-2017 3:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 10-19-2017 11:45 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 94 of 113 (822099)
10-19-2017 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Rrhain
10-19-2017 1:44 AM


Re: Still not getting it
It's been tried.

Where and when? Please substantiate.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 1:44 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 9:02 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 95 of 113 (822102)
10-19-2017 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rrhain
10-19-2017 1:38 AM


Re: Texas ...
Could such a candidate even win? After all, the Republican machine will tear a "progressive" candidate to shreds and the Republicans in the Republican district will vote for the "real" Republican. So what's the point of running such a candidate?

Yes -- if he gets every democrat/liberal/progressive in the district to register republican for the primary and vote for him, while the republicans split the ticket.

The point is that the general election is being hijacked by gerrymandering to effectively be decided by the republican primary -- so take the general election to their primary.

Should a miracle occur and this candidate win, what would be the effects? The rules of Congress indicate that an elected Republican will then put other Republicans in charge of the House and Senate, ensuring that no "progressive" bills will ever see the light of day. Should this candidate fight against this tendency, they will be punished by the Republicans in power, making them ineffective. So again, what is the point of running such a candidate?

He can change party. He could also lose to the democrat candidate. Goal achieved either way.

Exactly what is the point of running a "progressive" Republican?

To win the republican primary against republican candidates who split the republican votes, with the votes of democrats, independents, progressives, etc who register to vote in the republican party ... (this is the part of the plan both you, NoNukes and some others seem to be missing).

Take a hypothetical: the district is gerrymandered 55% republican and 45% democrat. Running in the general election the republican will win 55% of the vote to 45% of the vote for the democrat. Running in the republican primary against two republican candidates who split the 55% up 30% for one, 25% for the other, and the democrat, progressive, liberal, independent candidate wins the 45% of the "democrat" votes by those people registered to vote in the primary. Last time I checked 45% would win the primary, and then you would have two democrat, progressive, liberal candidates running in the general election.

It really is a simple concept.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 1:38 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 9:07 PM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 96 of 113 (822103)
10-19-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by DC85
10-19-2017 8:27 AM


Re: Texas ...
You are aware that at one time the Republicans WERE the progressive party, right? How do you suppose the change happened?

Of course, I know that. But, those times are long gone. Try pulling up the state Republican party platform in any red state.

People in poverty in Alabama don't want tax cuts for the wealthy

And yet they vote for people who push that position all of the time, perhaps because they are getting other stuff they want, but I would not.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 8:27 AM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 10:26 AM NoNukes has responded

    
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


(1)
Message 97 of 113 (822104)
10-19-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by NoNukes
10-19-2017 9:40 AM


Re: Texas ...
And yet they vote for people who push that position all of the time, perhaps because they are getting other stuff they want, but I would not.

Indeed, why do you think Republicans focus so heavily on social issues while campaigning?(yet tend to ignore them mostly in office in favor of economics )

The BIG mistake Democrats in the south make is believing they need to be "moderate" on economics when no such voters exist, in fact the REAL center is to the left of what they call the "center" in DC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2017 9:40 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2017 12:03 PM DC85 has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 98 of 113 (822110)
10-19-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by RAZD
10-19-2017 8:55 AM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD writes:

Thus to say that something happens by chance is really saying nothing.


Okay, then it almost makes sense but it's still wrong. If you vote for a progressive pretending to be a Republican, how do you know he isn't a Republican pretending to be progressive?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2017 8:55 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 99 of 113 (822112)
10-19-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by DC85
10-19-2017 10:26 AM


Re: Texas ...
The BIG mistake Democrats in the south make is believing they need to be "moderate" on economics when no such voters exist

While I agree with you that it is a mistake for Democrats, you are underestimating the job that has been done in demonizing liberal economics. Large swaths of the population are wage earners and wage payers who accept the idea that a living wage is socialism and won't vote for it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 10:26 AM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 4:33 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


(1)
Message 100 of 113 (822124)
10-19-2017 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by NoNukes
10-19-2017 12:03 PM


Re: Texas ...
Large swaths of the population are wage earners and wage payers who accept the idea that a living wage is socialism and won't vote for it.

Polling shows a different story on these deep red areas. I found two polls one with national bipartisan support for raising wages,

http://thehill.com/...majority-supports-raising-minimum-wage

the other just from South Carolina where a resounding 2/3 support a minimum wage increase

http://www.thestate.com/...ogs/the-buzz/article13757501.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2017 12:03 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2017 4:41 PM DC85 has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 101 of 113 (822125)
10-19-2017 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by DC85
10-19-2017 4:33 PM


Re: Texas ...
the other just from South Carolina where a resounding 2/3 support a minimum wage increase

http://www.thestate.com/...ogs/the-buzz/article13757501.html

This is why the democrats/DNC have been shooting themselves in the foot since 2014 when they could have run on a living minimum wage platform.

You get similar results for universal healthcare (medicare for all) and paid family leave.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 4:33 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 7:05 PM RAZD has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 978
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 102 of 113 (822126)
10-19-2017 4:51 PM


2002 might count? Thinking of a few governors races.
In Tennessee, the 2 term Republican incumbent , who supported the Tennessee Medicaid expansion, was defeated when a conservative Democrat got the support of right wing Republicans. Out with TennesseeCare or whatever the (now dead)health care program was called.

The old Smokey Mountain Republican was defeated by an old Democrat.

Fred Thompson ran in 1994 as a pro choice, pro gun control Republican (and won a landslide), but by the time he ran for president in 2008, he was a born again right winger.

Bob Riley won in Alabama and attempted to raise taxes to fund education.

In 2014, a Republican ran against Jerry Brown in California, and might have been more liberal (he seemed to be on homeless issues). He got killed.

In 1988, Joe Liebermann won against a liberal Republican incumbent, when right wingers made it a major thing to rid themselves of Lowell Weiker

Lincoln Chafee, in 2000, beat a conservative Democrat for a Senate seat. But lost in 2006.

Weicker lost in 1988 but ran for governor as an indi.

Chafee ran for governor in 2010 and won.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


    
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 103 of 113 (822133)
10-19-2017 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
10-19-2017 4:41 PM


Re: Texas ...
This is why the democrats/DNC have been shooting themselves in the foot since 2014 when they could have run on a living minimum wage platform.

You get similar results for universal healthcare (medicare for all) and paid family leave.

I would argue much longer than 2014 these issues would have worked in their favor. I can't see how they don't calculate these polls.

The problem seems to be Democrats running as Republican light or "economic moderates" ( I argue the center is to the left) and when people are given the choice of two candidates that are the same on economic issues ,they choose based on social and other issues.

We are at a time where people's financial well being is top priority , yet Democrats are seemingly terrified to go the route on issues of wages universal healthcare and paid family leave.

Edited by DC85, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2017 4:41 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2017 8:54 AM DC85 has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 104 of 113 (822136)
10-19-2017 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by RAZD
10-19-2017 8:57 AM


Re: Still not getting it
RAZD responds to me:

quote:
quote:
It's been tried.

Where and when? Please substantiate.

I did. Did you not read the post? I also mentioned another example previously. Did you miss that one, too? You responded to it. But, like this one, you cut everything out in order to pretend you already understood everything.

Hint: What did Harry S Truman say about this very thing? And when did he say it? To whom? Why? I know, I haven't mentioned it until now, but this is not exactly some obscure thing.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2017 8:57 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 11:07 PM Rrhain has responded
 Message 107 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2017 8:16 AM Rrhain has responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 105 of 113 (822137)
10-19-2017 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by RAZD
10-19-2017 9:27 AM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD responds to me

quote:
quote:
Could such a candidate even win? After all, the Republican machine will tear a "progressive" candidate to shreds and the Republicans in the Republican district will vote for the "real" Republican. So what's the point of running such a candidate?

Yes -- if he gets every democrat/liberal/progressive in the district to register republican for the primary and vote for him, while the republicans split the ticket.

In a gerrymandered district? You seem to think that there would be enough Democrats to do this. That's the point behind the gerrymandering: There aren't enough.

quote:
He can change party.

Which would mean he wouldn't win the primary: People would figure it out beforehand and not vote for him.

quote:
He could also lose to the democrat candidate. Goal achieved either way.

Wait...what Democratic candidate? All the Democrats voted in the Republican primary.

quote:
quote:
Exactly what is the point of running a "progressive" Republican?

To win the republican primary against republican candidates who split the republican votes, with the votes of democrats, independents, progressives, etc who register to vote in the republican party

Which will never happen. Such a candidate will be torn to shreds during the primary season and in a gerrymandered district, there aren't enough votes. You are presuming that there are sufficient alternative candidates and that they are equally appealing such that there would be a split vote.

You seem to forget how incumbency works in practice.

An awful lot of assumptions there.

quote:
It really is a simple concept.

Which is why it doesn't work. The world is not simple.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2017 9:27 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2017 8:24 AM Rrhain has responded

    
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