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Author Topic:   Elections are won in the primaries
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 106 of 113 (822140)
10-19-2017 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Rrhain
10-19-2017 9:02 PM


Re: Still not getting it
What did Harry S Truman say about this very thing? And when did he say it? To whom? Why? I know, I haven't mentioned it until now, but this is not exactly some obscure thing.

Actually he was talking about literal Democrats trying to act like Republicans to win (like they do in the south today) Not at all the same thing.

quote:
If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 9:02 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Rrhain, posted 10-20-2017 9:04 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 107 of 113 (822151)
10-20-2017 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Rrhain
10-19-2017 9:02 PM


Re: Still not getting it
I did. ...

Cop out, it should be easy peasy to repeat.

... Did you not read the post? ...

Nope, I lose interest when you go off on a misunderstanding to post something lengthy and irrelevant.

So

Who, where, when

Did a candidate from the other party try to run in a gerrymandered district primary for the party it was gerrymandered to protect, AND try to get all the people in the district to register for that party so they could vote for him?

Be specific. Both parts are required.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 9:02 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Rrhain, posted 10-20-2017 9:08 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 108 of 113 (822152)
10-20-2017 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Rrhain
10-19-2017 9:07 PM


Re: Texas ...
In a gerrymandered district? You seem to think that there would be enough Democrats to do this. That's the point behind the gerrymandering: There aren't enough.

Seems you still fail to understand. In a district gerrymandered so that republicans have a slim majority, then a primary with two or more republicans can split the republican vote and leave the democrat with a higher vote tally, ie ... win.

To spread the republican votes out to win as many districts as possible they need narrow margins over democrats and then pile a very high majority of democrats into as few districts as possible. That makes the gerrymandered districts vulnerable if everyone in the district votes in the republican primary, not just the republicans, and a candidate runs on a progressive, liberal, independent platform, in the primary against 2 or more republicans.

Which is why it doesn't work. The world is not simple.

Sometimes a simple plan is all you need.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2017 9:07 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Rrhain, posted 10-20-2017 9:12 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 109 of 113 (822155)
10-20-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by DC85
10-19-2017 7:05 PM


minimum living wage
I would argue much longer than 2014 these issues would have worked in their favor. I can't see how they don't calculate these polls.

Yes, Occupy Wallstreet was before that and they tapped into major interest in these issues. They formed a focus to discuss them and promote them. We now talk about 1%ers as a result.

But the 2014 race to my mind could have built on the pervasive protests for $15/hr, and brought democrat voters to the non-presidential election, and it could have made a significant difference to that election.

That is why Bernie got massive support for it, and he went further to a living wage, arguing that a person who works a 40 hour week should be able to afford the costs of living without needing government support, and that companies like Walmart that pay lower wages are being subsidized by the taxpayers to provide medicaid and welfare (food stamps, housing assistance, etc).

Issues that had/have support across party lines, so an independent progressive candidate running on such a platform will find some support from republicans. If that candidate runs in the republican primary, and gets everyone in the district to vote in the republican primary, they could win some republican votes as well as the democrat/liberal votes, especially against 2 or more republican candidates.

Especially if he runs on public donations rather than corporate money.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 7:05 PM DC85 has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 110 of 113 (822192)
10-20-2017 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by DC85
10-19-2017 11:07 PM


Re: Still not getting it
DC85 responds to me:

quote:
Actually he was talking about literal Democrats trying to act like Republicans to win (like they do in the south today) Not at all the same thing.

And so is RAZD. Truman was not talking about merely "acting" like a Democrat. He wants, to quote Truman in reverse, "a Democrat in Republican clothing."

When Truman was talking about, as you put it, "acting like a Republican," what did he mean? He didn't mean political tactics. He was talking actual policy: He gave as an example oil rights for states with coastline drilling. Where should the oil go? The Republican policy was to let the state keep it despite the fact that they belong to the entire United States. He could understand how congresscritters from Texas or California might go that way, but what about the rest of the country? They shouldn't give those rights away even though they don't have coastline and aren't directly involved in the drilling.

In other words, don't be a phony Democrat. Don't be a Republican in Democratic clothing.

And that's what RAZD is advocating: A person who would normally be running in the Democratic Party registering as a Republican in order to run in the Republican Party.

The Republican voters would sniff him out immediately. He ignores what the electorate would do once they found out of the shenanigans (and he doesn't even start in on the question of who is actually going to run in the Democratic primary and how that candidate doesn't then siphon off the votes that he needs to get the phony Republican to win the Republican primary where he assumes the rest of the Republican field is large enough that they would be fractured.)

It doesn't work. It never has. Why should this time be any different?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 11:07 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 111 of 113 (822194)
10-20-2017 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by RAZD
10-20-2017 8:16 AM


Re: Still not getting it
RAZD responds to me:

quote:
quote:
I did. ...

Cop out, it should be easy peasy to repeat.

Cop out. It should be easy peasy to read the posts before you respond. Especially when it becomes clear that you have missed out on quite a lot. Yeah, I could repeat Ossoff's name, but that isn't going to convince you to read the post this time. You didn't last time.

quote:
quote:
Did you not read the post? ...

Nope

Cognitive dissonance for the loss!

You need to do your homework, RAZD, if you ever want to have any hope of having something intelligent to say.

For crying out loud...it's your own argument. Are you incapable of defending it?

Who's going to run for the Democratic candidacy? How are you going to prevent the liberals whom you want to vote for your phony Republican from voting for the Democrat? After all, the district is gerrymandered: There aren't that many Democratic voters to begin with. You are proposing running two strong liberal candidates: One as a Republican and one as a Democrat. How does that not immediately split the liberal vote?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2017 8:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2017 9:12 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 112 of 113 (822195)
10-20-2017 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by RAZD
10-20-2017 8:24 AM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD responds to me:

quote:
Seems you still fail to understand.

Says who? You? Why should we believe you? You admit you don't read the posts to which you are replying, so by what criteria do you justify this claim?

Who's running for the Democratic position, RAZD? You've got a district where liberals are in the minority and you want two liberals to run: One a Democrat and one a Republican. Assuming the conservative voters are all idiots and don't immediately see what you're doing and adjust their strategy (asking people to drop out in order to prevent splitting the vote), you need all the liberals to vote for the Republican.

How do you stop them from voting for the Democrat?

It seems you still fail to understand.

quote:
Sometimes a simple plan is all you need.

It's good to have an open mind...but not so open that your brain falls out.

It's never worked before, RAZD. Why would now be any different?

How do you stop the liberals from voting for the Democrat? How do you stop the conservatives from catching on to what you're doing and rally around one candidate?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2017 8:24 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 113 of 113 (822331)
10-23-2017 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Rrhain
10-20-2017 9:08 PM


Re: Still not getting it
For crying out loud...it's your own argument. Are you incapable of defending it?

Curiously I do not need to defend your misinterpretation of my argument.

You said it's been tried, but you can't provide the details to show that what I have proposed has been tried. You may think you have, but that is your misinterpretation again.

That's why I said:

quote:
Nope, I lose interest when you go off on a misunderstanding to post something lengthy and irrelevant.

So

Who, where, when

Did a candidate from the other party try to run in a gerrymandered district primary for the party it was gerrymandered to protect, AND try to get all the people in the district to register for that party so they could vote for him?

Be specific. Both parts are required.


So far no response but evasion. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

Showing your lack of understanding of my position you say:

Who's going to run for the Democratic candidacy? How are you going to prevent the liberals whom you want to vote for your phony Republican from voting for the Democrat? After all, the district is gerrymandered: There aren't that many Democratic voters to begin with. You are proposing running two strong liberal candidates: One as a Republican and one as a Democrat. How does that not immediately split the liberal vote?

How can you "split the liberal vote" in the republican primary where only one independent progressive is running?

Be specific.

And you don't seem to understand gerrymandering, because this ...

... After all, the district is gerrymandered: There aren't that many Democratic voters to begin with. ...

The republican districts are set up to have a republican majority, yes, but not by too much, because they have to spread their republican votes into majorities in as many districts as possible. That means +/-55% republican to +/-45% democrat in the republican districts while crowding as many democrats as possible into as few districts as possible, +/-95%democrat to +/-5% republican in the democrat districts.

This makes them vulnerable if the republican vote is split between two republican candidates in the republican primary and an independent progress is running in the republican primary WITH all the liberal voters registered to vote in that primary ... then 45% can win over a split of the 55% ... in the republican primary.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Rrhain, posted 10-20-2017 9:08 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
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