"The Flood" deposits as a sea transgressive/regressive sequence ("Walther's Law")

There is evidence that decay constants have not changed: Uranium halos and the Oklo natural reactors.Enjoy

ROFLOL.Your definition of answering contrary evidence must differ from mine.Let me point out that you have not answered -- scientifically/rationally/evidentially -- ANY of the contrary evidence showing the earth is very, very, very old in Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1. The best you could muster was that you could not explain it ... that is not an answer to the evidence.Let me point out that you have not answered -- scientifically/rationally/evidentially -- ANY of the contrary evidence showing that the Grand Canyon formed by relatively slow erosion from west to east in Age of Grand Canyon and Cave Speleothems and not by flood drainage. Your "answer" was ... ie -- dismissed and ignored ...Let me point out that you have not answered -- scientifically/rationally/evidentially -- ANY of the contrary evidence showing that it was not caused by a ridge overflow in If Caused By Flood Drainage Why is the Grand Canyon Where It IS? ... oh that's right you didn't even participate in that one ... you just ignored it ...Let me point out that you have not answered -- scientifically/rationally/evidentially -- Message 868 or Message 891 on the Evidence of the flood thread ... posts that soundly refute your silly claim of "A charming fat fish proves radiometic dating is false cuz the varves aren't annual" ...Let me point out that you have not answered -- scientifically/rationally/evidentially -- any of the posts that Percy listed in Message 861 of that Evidence of the flood thread ....Posting one-line quips is not answering the issues raised that soundly refute your delusional positions.So no, you have not answered contrary evidence,you have dismissed it,... as evidenced by your unchanging argument of a delusional magic flying carpet flood doing silly supernatural things sorting of radioactive isotopes and fossils into the same age layers around the world,... a feat that water alone has never accomplished in recorded history, and that science consistently shows is impossible within the laws of physics and chemistry.Enjoy

Claiming something happens that violates known scientific knowledge, contradicts known scientific knowledge with no explanation of how ... is claiming magic does it.Radioactive isotopes and fossils sorted into a consistent pattern around the world, a pattern explained by old age and known scientific processes, a pattern not explained by the know behavior of water, but claiming that water does do it ... is claiming magic does it.Because no testable measurable known system does what is claimed.Enjoy

Except, shockingly, all the evidence of an ancient earth in Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 ...

Except, shockingly, all the evidence of an ancient earth in Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 ... where your single post to address the very beginning of the evidence (the Bristlecone Pines) was: That is the sum total of your reply to my Message 277: You couldn't refute this and made no attempt ... in over 13 years of this thread being posted ... to address any of the other issues. Except that it does not (and cannot) account for the sorting of trilobite body shapes (let's forget whether or not they were all one species for now, and concentrate on the factual evidence of different body shapes) in layers with radioactive isotopes that are also curiously sorted to have different "decay aged" isotopes always in the same layers with specific trilobite body shapes even though these isotopes are immune to chemical sorting or physical sorting by any known scientific process.Evidence that IS explained by old age and the lapse of time since the layers were deposited for the radioactive isotopes to decay to their present states.And evidence that is supported by the evidence of Uranium Halos and the Oklo natural reactors that shows no change in the way radioactive material decays ... for hundreds of millions of years ....What is logically impossible is a young earth when there is soooo much evidence of an old earth, evidence that should not exist in a young earth.You have no idea how much evidence is out there that totally refutes any young earth scenario ... except magic.Enjoy

So give me one (1) →ONE← piece of evidence that you think is good evidence for a young earth.Give me your best shot.Enjoy

Well I tried to look up the images for Walther's law, and only got the nasty photobucket message, digging a little deeper I was able to find the image that was posted by roxrkool and was able to save a copy: and I did find these from the Depositional Models of Sea Transgressions/Regressions - Walther's Law thread applying the information to the Grand Canyon: followed by this reply from Jon: This shows the horizontal distribution of the different deposition types.Edited by Admin, : Replace first image.

So using the model from Message 74 above we should expect basement continental land, one long transgression to cover the land and one long regression to uncover it: And we should see this arrangement everywhere, yes?Enjoy

Sadly what I found was a thumbnail of the roxrkool picture on the photobucket account, using TransgressiveFaciesShift on an image search. Maybe email roxrkool and see if we can get a fresh image? I did run across this image and discussion online:

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How to Identify Transgression and Regression in a Sedimentary Outcrop?

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A Marine Transgression is a geologic event during which sea level rises relative to the land and the shoreline moves toward higher ground, resulting in flooding. Transgressions can be caused either by the land sinking or the ocean basins filling with water (or decreasing in capacity). Transgressions and regressions may be caused by tectonic events such as orogenies, severe climate change such as ice ages or isostatic adjustments following removal of ice or sediment load. In either case, sea water rises farther up onto land than it did before.

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In this case we will have deeper sea sediments (shales and limestones) being deposited on top of continentally-derived beach sediments (sand). This forms a sequence (from bottom to top) of: sand ► shale ►limestone. A maximum transgression occurs where the finest sediments reach the farthest landward.

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They also cover regression and stacking the two excerpts gives the same result as my diagram in Message 75.Enjoy

Thanks, I've replaced my copies with this version. And what the sources of the material are, and how they are graded by particle sizes.The sands and siltciclastic muds are from continental erosion with the finer particles being carried further (by wind and water) from shore before deposition (gets back to Stoke's Law), while the carbonate sediments and cocolith foram ooze are from biological sources (mixed with some very fine air-born particles). That was the idea behind the paper strips, which I also illustrated for the Grand Canyon (with some modifications from other posters as noted). I'm sure there is a lot more information involved, however we do need it simple and direct to minimize arguments about irrelevant details.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : .

Curiously I was looking at The Absurdities of the Geologic Time Scale (in proposed new topics) where you discussed this ...

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So, back to the absurdities: a slab of rock, this limestone, which on some accounts extends across most of North America, represents a time period on the surface of the earth, which one would assume looked at least somewhat topographically like the surface of the earth today with mountains and valleys and rivers and canyons and cliffs and so on. But it extends now only as a very thick flat slab of limestone across most of North America. The characteristics of the period and the creatures that lived during it are determined by geologists from the fossil contents of the limestone. We must imagine a complete earth landscape packed into that rock.

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This would only be the case for the strata that contain fossils of land animals. It would make things easier if all the lower or "earlier" strata were assumed to be from a period when the whole earth was under water, but instead we get interpretations of different depths of water and when we get to the Coconino sand it is assumed to have formed "in air."

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I think I'm going to have to rewrite some of this.

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Here's a representation from the creationist website Alpha and Omega Ministries of the extent across North America of the Tapeats Sandstone which is the lowest layer seen in the Grand Canyon above the basement or Precambrian rocks:

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Next image shows the extent of the smaller limestone formation, the Kaibab Plateau:

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And I looked at that last picture and thought that it did not support your concept of continent wide deposits ... even taking massive erosion into account (neither does the first picture) ... and then I looked closer.Now what I find curious, if not amusing, is that this last picture is not about the Kaibab Plateau limestone formation at all, but about the ecological distribution of the Kaibab Squirrel on the north side of the Grand Canyon and the related, but reproductively isolated Abert Squirrel on the south side and extending south and east from the canyon. Now the Kaibab Squirrel is descended from the Abert Squirrel after being isolated by the erosion of the Grand Canyon. Over many, many, many generations.This raises many questions, from explaining how the Kaibab Sqjuirrel got there and nowhere else, to how well do you vet the information you post and claim as evidence. Exactly as we see in the Grand Canyon, with several unconformities between layers, and where gradual uplift has distorted the whole area, causing north-south fault lines, while the river cuts and cuts and cuts the canyon down, from the west end towards the east end, with the timing documented by uranium dating of the mammillary speleothems in caves lining the walls of the canyon. Like the evidence of burrows and roots and tracks in the sandstone in several locations.Enjoy

Sadly, for you, denial does not make the evidence go away. Your personal opinion has no effect on the actual evidence of old age of the earth. But it is emblematic of how well you research your evidence ... you just grab the first thing that looks like what you want. Again you only take the part that interests you.

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Kaibab Limestone

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The Kaibab Limestone is a resistant cliff-forming, Permian geologic formation that crops out across the U.S. states of northern Arizona, southern Utah, east central Nevada and southeast California. It is also known as the Kaibab Formation in Arizona, Nevada, and Utah. The Kaibab Limestone forms the rim of the Grand Canyon. In the Big Maria Mountains, California, the Kaibab Limestone is highly metamorphosed* and known as the Kaibab Marble.[2][3]

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* Metamorphic rocks arise from the transformation of existing rock types, in a process called metamorphism, which means "change in form".[1] The original rock (protolith) is subjected to heat (temperatures greater than 150 to 200 C) and pressure (150 megapascals (1,500 bar))[clarify],[2] causing profound physical or chemical change. The protolith may be a sedimentary, an igneous, or even an existing type of metamorphic rock.

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Metamorphic rocks make up a large part of the Earth's crust and form 12% of the Earth's current land surface.[3] They are classified by texture and by chemical and mineral assemblage (metamorphic facies). They may be formed simply by being deep beneath the Earth's surface, subjected to high temperatures and the great pressure of the rock layers above it. They can form from tectonic processes such as continental collisions, which cause horizontal pressure, friction and distortion. They are also formed when rock is heated up by the intrusion of hot molten rock called magma from the Earth's interior. The study of metamorphic rocks (now exposed at the Earth's surface following erosion and uplift) provides information about the temperatures and pressures that occur at great depths within the Earth's crust. Some examples of metamorphic rocks are gneiss, slate, marble, schist, and quartzite.

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Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood makes metamorphic rock in one location and not in another?

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Kaibab Limestone: Description

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The Kaibab Limestone is a diverse assemblage of sedimentary rock types. It consists of a complexity of interfingering and interbedded carbonate and siliciclastic* sedimentary rocks. In addition, intense post-depositional (diagenetic) changes have created more composition variation by the alteration of limestone to dolostone and the silicification of limestone to form chert. In the western Grand Canyon region, the Fossil Mountain Member consists of fossiliferous and cherty limestone with an abundant and diverse normal-marine fossil fauna. Further east in the Coconino Plateau region, the lithology, mineralogy, and fauna of the Fossil Mountain Member changes drastically where it grades laterally into sandy dolostone and dolostone that contains a restricted-marine fossil fauna and subordinate amounts of sandstone.The Harrisburg Member, which forms the uppermost cliffs and receding ledges along both north and south rims of the Grand Canyon, consists of an assemblage of gypsum, dolostone, sandstone, redbeds, chert, and minor limestone.[1][2][3][6]

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* Siliciclastic rocks (commonly misspelled siliclastic) are clastic noncarbonate sedimentary rocks that are almost exclusively silica-bearing, either as forms of quartz or other silicate minerals. All siliciclastic rocks are formed by inorganic processes, or deposited through some mechanical process, such as stream deposits (delta deposits) that are subsequently lithified. They are sandstone based rocks accounting for about 50 - 60% of the world oil and gas exploration.The other silicate minerals that are generally present in siliciclastic sedimentary rocks are feldspar, biotite etc....

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Sounds (a) like the diverse assemblage of materials you described for non-flood sedimentation and (b) the gradation of material described by Walther's Law (more on this later).

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Contacts

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Within the Grand Canyon region, the Kaibab Limestone overlies gypsum and contorted sandstones of the Toroweap Formation. Originally, geologists interpreted the lower contact of the Kaibab Limestone to be an unconformity based on the presence of local intraformational breccias and erosional surfaces.[6] However, additional research has concluded that these local intraformational breccias and erosional surfaces are the result of collapse following the dissolution of evaporite deposits* within the upper part of the Toroweap Formation. As a result, this contact is inferred to be conformable or only locally a disconformity. South and east of the Grand Canyon, the evaporites and contorted sandstones (sabkha deposits) of Toroweap Formation interfinger with and are replaced by cross-bedded sandstones of the Coconino Sandstone. As a result, the Kaibab Limestone directly overlies the Coconino Sandstone in the Mogollon Rim region. The Kaibab Limestone directly overlies the White Rim Sandstone in northeastern Arizona and southeastern Utah.[1][6]

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* Evaporite ( /ɪˈvpəraɪt/) is a name for a water-soluble mineral sediment that results from concentration and crystallization by evaporation from an aqueous solution.[1] There are two types of evaporite deposits: marine, which can also be described as ocean deposits, and non-marine, which are found in standing bodies of water such as lakes. Evaporites are considered sedimentary rocks and are formed by chemical sediments.

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... When scientists evaporate ocean water in a laboratory, the minerals are deposited in a defined order that was first demonstrated by Usiglio in 1884.[2] The first phase of the experiment begins when about 50% of the original water depth remains. At this point, minor carbonates begin to form.[2] The next phase in the sequence comes when the experiment is left with about 20% of its original level. At this point, the mineral gypsum begins to form, which is then followed by halite at 10%,[2] ...

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Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood makes evaporites in one location and not in another? Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood makes evaporites between layers of sediment deposition? Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood even makes evaporites at all?

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Kaibab Limestone: Fossils

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The Kaibab Limestone contains the abundant fossils of Permian invertebrates and vertebrates. The invertebrate fossils found within the Kaibab Limestone include brachiopods, conodonts, corals, crinoids, echinoid spines, mollusks, hexactinellid and other sponges, trilobites, and burrows of callanassid shrimp. The fossil cephalopods found in the Kaibab Limestone include giant football-sized nautiloids.[1][6] Fossil shark teeth, which represent a diverse assemblage of chondrichthyans, occur within the Kaibab Limestone of Arizona.[6][9][10]

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We've talked before about how fragile fossils are preserved in the geological record, and here we have them again, in one of the later deposits of your purported magic carpet flying flood, which has gone through your most extreme destructive phases.Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood only places Permian invertebrates and vertebrates in the Kaibab formation?

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Kaibab Limestone: Depositional Environments

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The complex intercalation of carbonate and clastic sediments within the Kaibab Limestone reflects the deposition of sediments within a gently sloping continental margin during a period of frequent, high-frequency sea level changes. Relatively minor changes in sea level caused major lateral shifts in the position of supratidal, subtidal, and shallow-marine environments during the deposition of the Kaibab Limestone. The shifting sea levels and associated depositional environments created a complex interlayering of different types of carbonate and clastic sediments in the strata that comprise the Kaibab Limestone. The gently sloping continental margin, on which the Kaibab Limestone accumulated, extended seaward from northern Arizona to southern Nevada, at times exceeding 200 miles (125 km) in width. It is most likely that the high-frequency changes in sea level were caused by glacial-eustatic sea level oscillations during this time period.[1]

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Whoo Boyo ... that sure sounds like Walther's Law again. Especially when you superimpose this depositional environment on top of a layer of evaporites ...Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood mimics this depositional environment evidence -- with frequent shifts in water depths over period long enough for the specific types of sediment to form distinguishable layers?It seems to me that the Kaibab Limestone formation is no friend to your magic carpet flying flood concept -- it raises more questions than answers to how this formation could possibly form during your purported magic carpet flying flood event. Why?A lot of what between them?This seems to be your personal version of "the standard interpretation" that you argue against (ie - a straw man) and not any actual geological science interpretation of the actual evidence.Enjoy

Let me help you a little:

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Kaibab Limestone

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Age:
Early Permian, 250 million years ago

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Depositional Environment:
Shallow Marine Shelf Deposit

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Paleogeography:
Sediment deposition was influenced by the Uncompahgre Uplift (ancestral Rocky Mountains), but by the end of the Permian, the Uncompahgre mountains had been worn down and was not longer a major sediment source.

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Tectonics:
Collision of the Gondwana Plate with the Northern Plate resulted in the Uncompahgre highland.

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Climate:
Warm current winds

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Figure 1: Paleogeographic map of the Middle Permian, Kaibab Formation. (Blakey, 2008)

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Features:
The Kaibab Limestone is composed of impure cherty limestone and dolomite that interfinger with the White Rim Sandstone below it (Mathis, 2000). The Kaibab rocks range in color from gray, buff, and brown, to yellow/brown dolomite. Some sandy, carbonate beds are very fossiliferous (Condon, 1997). Invertebrate fossils include brachiopods, pelecypods, gastropods, crinoids, and bryozoans. The Kaibab formation in Capitol Reef National Park is only 0-200’ thick and but thickens to 300-500’ in the Grand Canyon (Morris, 2003). The difference in thickness is attributed to erosion. The environmental setting for the Kaibab Limestone was a shallow marine shelf deposit that represents the time of maximum eastward transgression of the Kaibab Sea (Condon, 1997). The Kaibab Sea began to withdraw by the Middle Permian, which left these sediments exposed to be subject to erosion (Condon, 1997). The Kaibab Limestone is visible at the Goosenecks Overlook in Capitol Reef National Park.

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Disclaimer: The information is property of the University of Utah. Unless cited, images and files found on this site have been taken or created by the Geology and Geophysics Department at the University of Utah. Any use of these images should be cited appropriately. The stratigraphic column is from: Mathis, A. C. 2000. Capitol Reef National Park and Vicinity Geologic Road Logs, Utah, in: P.B. Anderson and D.A. Sprinkel (eds.) Geologic Road, Trail, and Lake Guides to Utah’s Parks and Monuments Utah Geological Association Publication 29. http://www.utahgeology.org/uga29Titles.htm

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Copyright (c) 2010, Geology and Geophysics Department, The University of Utah

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"Shallow Marine Shelf Deposit" -- so we are back to Walther's Law again, providing the best explanation for the types of material this formation is composed of -- and we even have a worn away mountain range to provide erosional material for the formation -- the Uncompahgre mountains.But the big questions I have for you are:(1) Why is there a boundary/edge to this formation (and by extension, why are there boundaries/edges to ALL formations) if they are laid down in the world wide depositional environment of your purported magic flying carpet flood?(2) Why are there older formations that underlie this formation but rise to heights that appear to block its eastward extent if all the layers are laid down in a continuous flat process of your purported magic flying carpet flood? (3) Why would a seabed deposition always undergo massive erosion between layers that are explained by Walther's Law, and why would there necessarily always be distortion of these seabeds if the earth is old?Inquiring minds want to know.Enjoy

Well that would be due to the fact that the erosion and the carved riverbed in the photo occurred before the next layer was deposited ... after the land was again submerged in a shallow sea and sediment deposition occurred ... not once but twice: First the Mauv Limestone sediment was deposited; then the surface was exposed and eroded, including a river channel, before being submerged again.Second the Temple Butte sediment was deposited on top of the Mauv limestone sediment and filling the river channel and building a whole layer on top of the Mauve limestone sediment -- we know this from other sections where the Temple Butte sediment forms a thick layer; then the surface of the Temple Butte sediment was exposed and eroded, and in this location it was eroded away except for what remains in the river bed, before once again being submerged.Third the Redwall limestone sediment was deposited on top of the Mauve and Temple Butte surface leaving us with the picture seen.There is no erosion "between the layers," there is erosion during the time between the layers being deposited. Like this deep river cut that was then almost completely eroded away ... There certainly should be no discrete sediments from a flood deposition, everything should be all jumbled up and it should form AT LEAST ONE (1) continuous world wide layer of jumbled material (mostly dense material) -- a layer that covers the whole globe without a break. Where is it? The best you have was this And that -- generously speaking -- only covers ~60% of North America ... a small slice of the global surface.How can you believe something this picayune is the result of the massive world wide flying carpet flood.Without such a world spanning layer of a single depositional environment, there just is no evidence of the kind a global flood would necessarily produce.Enjoy

So,Where is one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer.All the previous land masses have been destroyed and the materials are picked up by the flying magic carpet flood and carried around and around and around the world in a massive slurry of muck and organic matter, ... and then the rains and fountains stop, and the sediments begin to be deposited ... separated into layers or not is immaterial to the fact that there should be AT LEAST one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer ... if such a flood occurred. Irrelevant.Where is one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that has to be deposited by a world wide globe girding flood. According to your model of the geological column there should be many. I only ask for one. OR it is what happened and you are the deluded one. After all there is no one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that has to be deposited by a world wide globe girding flood. No you have provided belief and opinion, not evidence. Evidence would consist of something like ... oh I don't know ... maybe one ... yes ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that has to be deposited by a world wide globe girding flood.Where is it? Well retreating under a barrage of evidence for an old earth is typical of YECie cultists.But I still have to ask, faith, where is one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer.Show me. According to your model of the geological column there should be many. I only ask for one.Show me the BEST evidence you have.The only thing I know that makes a world wide globe girding layer is the radioactive iridium layer from the Yucatan meteor impact, and that layer has identifiable clasts from the impact specific to that meteor, that layer sits on top of many different types of depositional layers around the world and is covered by different types of depositional layers around the world.So we know that wasn't due to a globe trotting flood, and we do know what a globe girding continuous layer looks like.Where is your layer, one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith?It does not exist. There was no flood. The earth is old. Very very very old. Get used to it.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : .