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Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
ringo
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Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 151 of 184 (824855)
12-04-2017 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:49 PM


Dredge writes:

In the way of an exercise, could a flying pig be fitted into a nested hierarchy?


You do the exercise: What would the nearest relatives of the flying pig be? What transitional fossils of mammals with six appendages would you expect to find?
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 7277
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 152 of 184 (824877)
12-04-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:47 PM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:

A cat fossil and a dog fossil could be imagined as transitional. Nothing to do with reality, however.

Here is what you said:

"The rationale for arranging them in that order is to make it look like the general theory of evolution is true"

That seems like a tacit admission that those fossils look transitional. Is that not the case? If they don't look transitional, then what are you complaining about?


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jar
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Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 153 of 184 (824879)
12-04-2017 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Taq
12-04-2017 4:21 PM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
And, of course, there are transitional cat and dog fossils. Even Dredge is likely to have heard of some of them if only from watching the Ice Age movies.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
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From: Central NC USA
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Message 154 of 184 (824891)
12-04-2017 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:49 PM


In the way of an exercise, could a flying pig be fitted into a nested hierarchy?

No, it could not. And guess what? There are no flying pigs.

Why does this thread exist again?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 155 of 184 (824896)
12-04-2017 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
12-04-2017 11:24 AM


If a flying mammal (a bat) can be fitted into a nested hierarchy, then another flying mammal - a pig - surely can. All you need to do is invent another branch on the tree - as you could do for any "new" creature (whether living or fossilized). We didn't didn't know there were mammals that grew wings out their ribs, but now we do, so, we just add a branch to the base of the mammal branch.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:24 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 156 of 184 (824897)
12-04-2017 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Percy
12-03-2017 7:51 PM


Percy writes:

dragons


Dragons are described in the Bible, so they existed. When one of their fossils is discovered, evolutionists will have to fit it somehow into their mythical Tree of Life.

-----------------
A pig with four legs and two wings on its back, of course - have you never seen one?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 157 of 184 (824899)
12-04-2017 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by NoNukes
12-04-2017 6:19 PM


NoNukes writes:

guess what? There are no flying pigs.

But they may have existed in the past.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
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(1)
Message 158 of 184 (824900)
12-04-2017 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Dredge
12-04-2017 7:42 PM


Dragons are described in the Bible, so they existed.

Nonsense! That's just one more instance where the bible is wrong.

Dragons are described (in far better detail) in The Hobbit, and that work makes far more interesting reading.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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ringo
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Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 159 of 184 (824920)
12-05-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Dredge
12-04-2017 7:27 PM


Dredge writes:

All you need to do is invent another branch on the tree - as you could do for any "new" creature (whether living or fossilized).


That isn't how it works. You can't just "invent" a branch. By definition, a branch has to be connected to something. Where would you connect the flying pig? You can't just connect it to the other pigs because the other pigs only have four legs. What branch has four-legged animals with wings?

Dredge writes:

We didn't didn't know there were mammals that grew wings out their ribs....


Bats didn't grow wings out of their ribs. Have you read the thread at all? Their forelimbs adapted into wings while our forelimbs adapted into arms with grasping hands, whales' forelimbs adapted into swimming fins and pigs' forelimbs adapted into legs for walking on all fours. They're all the same forelimbs adapted to different environments.
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Taq
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Posts: 7277
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 160 of 184 (824938)
12-05-2017 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Dredge
12-04-2017 7:27 PM


Dredge writes:

If a flying mammal (a bat) can be fitted into a nested hierarchy, then another flying mammal - a pig - surely can. All you need to do is invent another branch on the tree - as you could do for any "new" creature (whether living or fossilized).

The feathers would be a clear violation of the nested hierarchy.


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RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 161 of 184 (824940)
12-05-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Dredge
12-04-2017 7:27 PM


If a flying mammal (a bat) can be fitted into a nested hierarchy, ...

As shown to you in Message 126 the bat wing is an adapted front limb, with homologous bones from shoulder to finger tip with other mammals, and that they are also homologous with tetrapods like birds - which have also adapted front limbs to form wings:

The homologous bones are shown in different colors so that even school children can see their similarities.

Building nested hierarchies is done using homologies, not imagination, and that is why they can be repeated with the same results from scratch.

... then another flying mammal - a pig - surely can.

Curiously, I am aware of 'flying' squirrels and 'flying' lemurs and 'flying' marsupials ... all of which use adaptation of skin to form gliding surfaces (and which all fit neatly into nested hierarchies in different places due to their homologies of bones and other features -- again consistently are repeatably), ...

... but I am not aware of any flying pigs: can you provide any evidence that such a creature existed?

... All you need to do is invent another branch on the tree - as you could do for any "new" creature (whether living or fossilized). ...

And where are the homologies on the tree that such a branch would plug into? What is the evidence that could be used to place this flying pig into relation with ancestral forms?

Show me the evidence of a flying pig and then we can discuss it.

Can you tell me how an element of an unknown atomic weight, unknown numbers of electrons and protons would fit in the periodic table?

The nested hierarchies are built based on the structures within different species that are homologous or derived.

The elements in the periodic table are placed in their locations based on the structures of the atoms.

Without even a hint of the structure of this flying pig, how could one begin to place it? How do you even know it is a pig?

Science deals with evidence, so provide the evidence.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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dwise1
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Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 162 of 184 (824958)
12-05-2017 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Dredge
12-04-2017 7:27 PM


All you need to do is invent another branch on the tree - as you could do for any "new" creature (whether living or fossilized).

Sure, we can just group your flying pigs with the crocoduck. However, that "branch" would be stuck out all on its own with no connection to the "Tree of Life". That is because of their common characteristic of being something really stupid that had sprung forth fully formed from a creationist's ignorant imagination.

We didn't didn't know there were mammals that grew wings out their ribs, but now we do, so, we just add a branch to the base of the mammal branch.

Except no such critter exists. Nor do we know of any mammals who "grew wings out their ribs". Your ignorant musings are completely divorced from reality and from common sense.


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jar
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Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 163 of 184 (824963)
12-05-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by dwise1
12-05-2017 4:02 PM


But if there were such critters the evidence would show the wings were modified ribs, which fits right in with everything we have ever learned. Evolution is a series of modifications and re-purposing pieces parts that already exist. Birds wings are modified limbs. Whale flippers are modified limbs. The inner ear bones are modified jaw parts.

All life begins as a single cell.

The issue is creationists are so ignorant that they have no idea of what the process of evolution explained by the Theory of Evolution shows and says.

And they want to stay ignorant.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Percy
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Posts: 16306
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 164 of 184 (825036)
12-06-2017 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Dredge
12-04-2017 7:42 PM


Dredge writes:

Dragons are described in the Bible, so they existed.

This webpage tries to answer the question, "What does the Bible say about dragons?"

quote:
Answer: The Bible mentions a dragon in Revelation chapters 12, 13, 16, and 20. Revelation 20:2 identifies the dragon: “He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.” The Bible is not teaching that dragons ever truly existed. Rather, it is only comparing Satan to a fire-breathing monster.

For some reason this answer fails to mention that Revelation 12:9 also says that the dragon is Satan:

quote:
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.

You continue:

When one of their fossils is discovered, evolutionists will have to fit it somehow into their mythical Tree of Life.

When the fossil of a dragon or minotaur or griffin or crocoduck is discovered then it will throw a major monkey wrench into the theory of evolution. Just finding a rabbit fossil in the Cambrian would do the same.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
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Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 165 of 184 (825064)
12-07-2017 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Dredge
12-04-2017 7:46 PM


NoNukes writes:

guess what? There are no flying pigs.

Dredge writes:

But they may have existed in the past.

So you are saying that you will have an argument when pigs can fly? Yeah, I agree.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Dredge, posted 12-04-2017 7:46 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
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