Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8802 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-18-2017 2:08 PM
290 online now:
halibut, NoNukes, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle (5 members, 285 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 822,618 Year: 27,224/21,208 Month: 1,137/1,714 Week: 345/525 Day: 20/67 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
4567Next
Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 632
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 31 of 103 (822193)
10-20-2017 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
10-07-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
I don't think there is a need for a creationists to explain what a "kind" is. That is not the point of the Scripture, which is this: If God initially created simple life forms that later evolved into all the life we see on earth today, there would be no point in him saying creatures were created "according to their kinds", because the original "kinds" were destined to evolve into oblivion.

That is to say, the words, "according to their kinds" suggests a fixity of kinds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 10-07-2017 12:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2017 1:43 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 33 by dwise1, posted 10-21-2017 3:54 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2017 4:54 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 35 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 7:04 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 10-21-2017 12:03 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 32 of 103 (822218)
10-21-2017 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dredge
10-20-2017 9:06 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
I don't think there is a need for a creationists to explain what a "kind" is. ...

Then they can't say what is not a "kind" ... but then you try to explain what a "kind" is:

That is to say, the words, "according to their kinds" suggests a fixity of kinds.

Would that not mean that in any generation of any species, that the young would appear to be pretty much the same as their parents within the variation seen in that generation? Certainly within the variation seen in dogs, yes?

Let's look at A Smooth Fossil Transition: Pelycodus, a primate

quote:

Pelycodus was a tree-dwelling primate that looked much like a modern lemur. The skull shown is probably 7.5 centimeters long.

The numbers down the left hand side indicate the depth (in feet) at which each group of fossils was found. As is usual in geology, the diagram gives the data for the deepest (oldest) fossils at the bottom, and the upper (youngest) fossils at the top. The diagram covers about five million years.

The numbers across the bottom are a measure of body size. Each horizontal line shows the range of sizes that were found at that depth. The dark part of each line shows the average value, and the standard deviation around the average.


Does that not look like a species reproducing "according to their kinds" from generation to generation?

... If God initially created simple life forms that later evolved into all the life we see on earth today, there would be no point in him saying creatures were created "according to their kinds", because the original "kinds" were destined to evolve into oblivion.

How so?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2017 9:06 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 33 of 103 (822220)
10-21-2017 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dredge
10-20-2017 9:06 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
IOW, you have absolutely nothing to say.

I could agree to that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2017 9:06 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5146
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 34 of 103 (822221)
10-21-2017 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dredge
10-20-2017 9:06 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
Dredge writes:

That is to say, the words, "according to their kinds" suggests a fixity of kinds.

Fine, but you can't have it both ways. Noah either filled his boat with every 'kind' exactly as we see them today, or he took some subset of them which then evolved into all the organisms we see today.

They're either fixed or they're not, which are you choosing?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2017 9:06 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29604
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 35 of 103 (822223)
10-21-2017 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dredge
10-20-2017 9:06 PM


ignorant Gods often get it wrong.
Which is simply additional evidence that God got it wrong in both Genesis 1 & 2. Ignorant God.

None of the kinds mentioned in the Bible existed at the beginning.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2017 9:06 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 36 of 103 (822230)
10-21-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dredge
10-20-2017 9:06 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
Dredge writes:

That is to say, the words, "according to their kinds" suggests a fixity of kinds.


But "fixity of kinds" requires an explanation of what kinds are. What, exactly, is fixed? Poodles beget poodles after their kind and sheepdogs beget sheepdogs after their kind. Dogs are not necessarily a kind. What is fixed?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2017 9:06 PM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2017 7:25 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 37 of 103 (822241)
10-21-2017 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
10-21-2017 12:03 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
But "fixity of kinds" requires an explanation of what kinds are. What, exactly, is fixed? Poodles beget poodles after their kind and sheepdogs beget sheepdogs after their kind. Dogs are not necessarily a kind. What is fixed?

The dogs that don't meet the purebred standard?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 10-21-2017 12:03 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 632
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 38 of 103 (822250)
10-21-2017 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by JonF
10-02-2017 11:52 AM


quote:
I'm not aware of any. Got a few examples?

Try the article "Do all life forms fall into a nested hierarchy?" at evolutionnews.org.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by JonF, posted 10-02-2017 11:52 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 8:46 PM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 46 by JonF, posted 10-21-2017 9:52 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29604
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 39 of 103 (822251)
10-21-2017 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dredge
10-21-2017 8:42 PM


Too funny.

You really use something like Discovery Institute as though it had anything to do with science?

Sheesh. That explains a lot!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2017 8:42 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 632
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 40 of 103 (822252)
10-21-2017 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by dwise1
10-09-2017 1:11 AM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
Lenski's experiment: 50,000 generations of E. Coli and nothing to suggest that E. Coli can be anything but E. Coli. After 50 billion generations the result will be the same - E. Coli producing nothing but more E. Coli.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by dwise1, posted 10-09-2017 1:11 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 8:57 PM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 632
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 41 of 103 (822253)
10-21-2017 8:51 PM


Does a platypus fall into a nested hierarchy?
Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by JonF, posted 10-21-2017 9:54 PM Dredge has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29604
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 42 of 103 (822255)
10-21-2017 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dredge
10-21-2017 8:47 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
See, you believe crap like that has any meaning; ignorance writ large. E-coli is not just one organism but one of the most diverse examples of bacteria out there with lots of different strains.

What that so called experiment actually shows is about like saying mammals reproduce mammals or plants reproduce plants.

Remember, Creationists, particular those who claim to be scientists are counting on your ignorance so you don't simply laugh out loud when they are fund raising.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2017 8:47 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2017 9:15 PM jar has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 632
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 43 of 103 (822258)
10-21-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
10-21-2017 8:57 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
You assume that bacteria can evolve into something that is not bacteria but something more functionally complex. But what evidence is there that that can happen?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 8:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 9:24 PM Dredge has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29604
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 44 of 103 (822260)
10-21-2017 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dredge
10-21-2017 9:15 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
Dredge writes:

You assume that bacteria can evolve into something that is not bacteria but something more functionally complex. But what evidence is there that that can happen?

Too funny.

You really can't do anything but the Gish Gallop can you?

There is a whole bunch of threads that cover the evidence that it can and in fact did happen. We have the fossils so we win. Once there was nothing living on Earth more complex than single celled organisms.

Now there are things more complex than single celled organisms.

So far the ONLY explanation is that evolution happened and the Theory of Evolution explains how it happened.

Stop listening to the liars known as Creationists.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2017 9:15 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2017 9:30 PM jar has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 632
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 45 of 103 (822261)
10-21-2017 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
10-21-2017 9:24 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
"Everybody knows that organisms get better as they evolve. They get more advanced, more modern, and less primitive. And everybody knows, according to Dan McShea (who has written a paper called Complexity and Evolution: What Everybody Knows), that organisms get more complex as they evolve. From the first cell that coalesced in the primordial soup to the magnificent intricacies of Homo sapiens, the evolution of life--as everyone knows--has been one long drive toward greater complexity. The only trouble with what everyone knows, says McShea, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Michigan, is that there is no evidence it’s true." - Onward and Upward?, discovermagazine.com, June 1993.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 9:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 9:53 PM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 49 by JonF, posted 10-21-2017 9:57 PM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 61 by dwise1, posted 10-24-2017 12:32 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Prev12
3
4567Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017